The talent is there

[Jason94]

It just isn't always getting off the bench. After a bad start with our "starters" getting down 7-0 at the first media timeout, Robbins finally got off the bench and did what I suggested in the Vols thread and pounded UT down low, drawing fouls and being the beast he has been most of the season. As more players came off the bench, we were able to calm things down, including Shelby who scored 12 points in the half by being a better version of Thomas. @hen both centers got 2 fouls, CJS was forced to play Dort, who promptly came in and looked exactly like the player we thought we had when he signed. Unfortunately, Dort didn't play at all in the 2nd half until the fat lady had sung, and Shelby found himself next to him on the pine for most of the half as well.

After having good games against Missouri, the trio of QMB, Thomas and Ansong played a total 36 minutes last night and struggled to maintain the momentum they had built against Mizzou. They had a total of 3 points on 1-8 shooting and 1-6 from three (QMB did not attempt a shot) with zero rebounds, 1 assist and 3 TO's. I will not say that this was the difference between winning and losing, but I will contrast their minutes to the 23 minutes that Shelby, Dia and Dort played (Dia didn't get of the bench) and their production of 18 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists or TO's. It certainly becomes less obvious that there is a massive advantage to giving significantly more minutes to the former group than the latter.

As for Stute, it is difficult to be too hard on him, given that the lineup which he is most frequently on the court with is one where he is the only true offensive threat, and therefore teams can focus on him without too much concern that they will be burned by QMB, Thomas or Smith.

I wonder if CJS is going to live and die with his puzzling starting rotation just to spite his detractors. I think if he stepped back he would see how this is not an optimal approach.

[cjdore]

CJS I am sure knows more about basketball than I will ever learn but I cannot believe that he cannot see what we see. He starts the B team and we get 7-10 points down and then the A team comes into make the game competitive. We must stop spotting teams these 7-10 points!!!!!

[charlestonalum]

CJS I am sure knows more about basketball than I will ever learn but I cannot believe that he cannot see what we see. He starts the B team and we get 7-10 points down and then the A team comes into make the game competitive. We must stop spotting teams these 7-10 points!!!!!

The "B" team got a big lead at the start of Mizzou. Then the "A" team lost it - rememder one game ago?

[UltimateVUFan]

CJS I am sure knows more about basketball than I will ever learn but I cannot believe that he cannot see what we see. He starts the B team and we get 7-10 points down and then the A team comes into make the game competitive. We must stop spotting teams these 7-10 points!!!!!

The "B" team got a big lead at the start of Mizzou. Then the "A" team lost it - rememder one game ago?

I also think there is no question that the team has been playing much better on the whole over the past 5 games.
How many people even predicted VU would be competitive in the Mizzou or UT games a few weeks ago?
Players are still bought in and dialed in. And the team seems - as usual for Stack’s teams since he took over - to be making steady progress as the season progresses.

Note: I’m NOT saying fans should be pleased with how the non-conference schedule played out. But I am saying that most everyone predicted a significant struggle with the departures of Pippen and Chatman entering the season. Then many of those same people acted surprised that there were some head-scratching losses early in the season. Never mind the fact that many traditional powers and programs ranked above VU right now have also laid some eggs and lost to teams they “should” beat.
Suffice it to say, rebuilding a program with the recruiting limitations of VU isn’t easy. And I still don’t believe that 99.9% of those posting on this board would be able to handle the job more successfully than Stack (though I defend your right to offer criticism).

[jpmando]

I have to comment here.

Until someone can verify that admission to VU is more difficult now than in past decades, using the academic limitations argument may not be valid.

Skinner, Newton, Fogler, Stallings had significant success during many of their years. VBK results were not terrible. Drew was sadly awful, but did have a tournament year.

My honest feeling is that our guys have talent, play hard ,
Keep composure , compete and want to win.
They should be winning more games.

Seems that our system, or lack thereof. Is really hammering our success. Hard to not conclude that we need a more effective system(s) and all that goes with that conclusion.

[Jason94]

CJS I am sure knows more about basketball than I will ever learn but I cannot believe that he cannot see what we see. He starts the B team and we get 7-10 points down and then the A team comes into make the game competitive. We must stop spotting teams these 7-10 points!!!!!

The "B" team got a big lead at the start of Mizzou. Then the "A" team lost it - rememder one game ago?

I do remember that - but I'm looking at the entirety of the season, not individual games. What does that tell you? When you see the "starters" on the floor, where does the offense come from?

[dore74]

Jason, I'm increasingly of the view that the "unique" approach to selecting starters is less our issue and that the thinness of our bench is.

Biggest question to me is whether the freshman class could have been brought up to speed and made a part of the rotation more quickly. I think therein lies the key to the success of the team this year and in the future. Suspect that coach is uneasy with their reliability and game judgement, but given the state of the game today would seem that they need to get added into the flow more quickly. And if they are just plain not good enough, well that's another story all together--although from the little I've seen I don't that that is the case.

[Jason94]

Jason, I'm increasingly of the view that the "unique" approach to selecting starters is less our issue and that the thinness of our bench is.

Biggest question to me is whether the freshman class could have been brought up to speed and made a part of the rotation more quickly. I think therein lies the key to the success of the team this year and in the future. Suspect that coach is uneasy with their reliability and game judgement, but given the state of the game today would seem that they need to get added into the flow more quickly. And if they are just plain not good enough, well that's another story all together--although from the little I've seen I don't that that is the case.

I think that is the rub - if what we've seen from the freshmen were a complete unreadiness in their short stints off the bench, then it would be a different issue of poor recruiting. However, the glimpses we've had have shown us what we thought we were getting - very talented players who might be a bit raw (which is expected for freshmen).

Based on how they've played, a Starting lineup consisting of Manjon, Lawrence, Wright, Stute and Robbins is certainly talented enough to provide matchup issues for opponents, even in this league. Cobbling together a 8 man rotation consisting of Shelby, Dort, and Smith would give us a pretty standard 8 man rotation, and we have QMB available should there be foul issues with the two centers. Dia and Lewis could additionally play to spell Manjon and Stute respectively, though the latter represent the two players who play the most and require the least backup minutes.

IMO, this is a completely acceptable and talented rotation that combines both experience and youth, and balances those attributes to play the most talented players as many minutes as possible. Additionally it would have given the freshmen significant playing time and allowed them to experience their growing pains at pretty much zero cost in terms of wins from where we are right now.

The most frustrating thing about this season is that CJS has made significant strides in correcting his roster and depth issues but has maddingly refused to play his most talented players. This is at best costing us development time of our freshmen, and at worst will lead to transfers of players who could be getting a lot more PT elsewhere without having to go to a mid-major. It is also difficult to see where our net record would have been any different, but I would think it is possible we would have had an opportunity to reap the benefits of leaning into the development of our freshmen in February.

[docdore]

Jason, I'm increasingly of the view that the "unique" approach to selecting starters is less our issue and that the thinness of our bench is.

Biggest question to me is whether the freshman class could have been brought up to speed and made a part of the rotation more quickly. I think therein lies the key to the success of the team this year and in the future. Suspect that coach is uneasy with their reliability and game judgement, but given the state of the game today would seem that they need to get added into the flow more quickly. And if they are just plain not good enough, well that's another story all together--although from the little I've seen I don't that that is the case.

I think that is the rub - if what we've seen from the freshmen were a complete unreadiness in their short stints off the bench, then it would be a different issue of poor recruiting. However, the glimpses we've had have shown us what we thought we were getting - very talented players who might be a bit raw (which is expected for freshmen).

Based on how they've played, a Starting lineup consisting of Manjon, Lawrence, Wright, Stute and Robbins is certainly talented enough to provide matchup issues for opponents, even in this league. Cobbling together a 8 man rotation consisting of Shelby, Dort, and Smith would give us a pretty standard 8 man rotation, and we have QMB available should there be foul issues with the two centers. Dia and Lewis could additionally play to spell Manjon and Stute respectively, though the latter represent the two players who play the most and require the least backup minutes.

IMO, this is a completely acceptable and talented rotation that combines both experience and youth, and balances those attributes to play the most talented players as many minutes as possible. Additionally it would have given the freshmen significant playing time and allowed them to experience their growing pains at pretty much zero cost in terms of wins from where we are right now.

The most frustrating thing about this season is that CJS has made significant strides in correcting his roster and depth issues but has maddingly refused to play his most talented players. This is at best costing us development time of our freshmen, and at worst will lead to transfers of players who could be getting a lot more PT elsewhere without having to go to a mid-major. It is also difficult to see where our net record would have been any different, but I would think it is possible we would have had an opportunity to reap the benefits of leaning into the development of our freshmen in February.

what am i missing? how does this jason approach not make overwhelming sense? isn't turning talented freshmen into "essentially sophomores" by late season (by playing them early) a way teams can become tourney ready and also mitigate the attraction of the portal?

[Jason94]

Jason, I'm increasingly of the view that the "unique" approach to selecting starters is less our issue and that the thinness of our bench is.

Biggest question to me is whether the freshman class could have been brought up to speed and made a part of the rotation more quickly. I think therein lies the key to the success of the team this year and in the future. Suspect that coach is uneasy with their reliability and game judgement, but given the state of the game today would seem that they need to get added into the flow more quickly. And if they are just plain not good enough, well that's another story all together--although from the little I've seen I don't that that is the case.

I think that is the rub - if what we've seen from the freshmen were a complete unreadiness in their short stints off the bench, then it would be a different issue of poor recruiting. However, the glimpses we've had have shown us what we thought we were getting - very talented players who might be a bit raw (which is expected for freshmen).

Based on how they've played, a Starting lineup consisting of Manjon, Lawrence, Wright, Stute and Robbins is certainly talented enough to provide matchup issues for opponents, even in this league. Cobbling together a 8 man rotation consisting of Shelby, Dort, and Smith would give us a pretty standard 8 man rotation, and we have QMB available should there be foul issues with the two centers. Dia and Lewis could additionally play to spell Manjon and Stute respectively, though the latter represent the two players who play the most and require the least backup minutes.

IMO, this is a completely acceptable and talented rotation that combines both experience and youth, and balances those attributes to play the most talented players as many minutes as possible. Additionally it would have given the freshmen significant playing time and allowed them to experience their growing pains at pretty much zero cost in terms of wins from where we are right now.

The most frustrating thing about this season is that CJS has made significant strides in correcting his roster and depth issues but has maddingly refused to play his most talented players. This is at best costing us development time of our freshmen, and at worst will lead to transfers of players who could be getting a lot more PT elsewhere without having to go to a mid-major. It is also difficult to see where our net record would have been any different, but I would think it is possible we would have had an opportunity to reap the benefits of leaning into the development of our freshmen in February.

what am i missing? how does this jason approach not make overwhelming sense? isn't turning talented freshmen into "essentially sophomores" by late season (by playing them early) a way teams can become tourney ready and also mitigate the attraction of the portal?

I would also be happy to hear counterarguments that are not simply appeals to authority and experience. If I didn't trust Bryce Drew's entire lifetime in basketball and actual previous college head coaching experience that included NCAA tournament appearances, why would I necessarily have to trust CJS? Neither man (nor anyone) is infallible, and the results certainly suggest that something is not going completely as planned, unless the plan was to underperform.

[ymtn64]

I'm going to assume I'm not the only one here that has heard Coach Stackhouse say this, but each time I'm frustrated with the starting line up/minutes played by players and more, "he said that Jordan and some of the other veteran players prefer to come off the bench to start the game." As a fan, I don't agree, but I also know very well, I'm only a 20 year season ticket owning fan.

As much as the head scratching lineups and playing time annoys me, I will NEVER understand his reluctance to call a time out! I believe we most likely win at Missouri IF our coach had "stopped the run". Almost every coach in America would be willing to use more of their time outs, than we do. I realize it would of taken something miraculous, but why not call one of his 3 remaining time outs when we hit a 3pt shot with .06 on the clock, and try to force them into a 5 second count and have another timeout to set up a desperation 3 to try to tie the game? LOTS of us have seen the full court pass and layup play or 1/2 court shots and more than I can recall exciting finishes. I even believe that Tuesday night if some timely timeouts had been used, the game doesn't get so out of hand that a comeback isn't probable any longer.

I shared with my group that has our season tickets together on Tuesday, I can already see Dort and Shelby quickly becoming my favorite players in the years to come !

[ymtn64]

One more thing, I believe I heard the announcers say this during the Missouri game, but it could of been another game. Either way, they said that Coach Stackhouse admitted he is still learning the college game from a coaching standpoint. My jaw dropped at this comment. He has coached now for 3 1/2 seasons, and he still doesn't understand how to coach a college basketball game? Even if that is true, WHY WHY WHY tell that to the tv commentators?

I'm actually a pretty big supporter of our coach, and always a supporter of our players. Don't anyone think I'm wanting to only bash a coach. I'm very aware of his background, and how almost every game I hear the comment about what great sets/plays our coach designs. There are times I'm not sure I would make such a comment, but I also know an avid fan's opinion is not worth tons.

I will be there Saturday, I will be cheering, supporting, and more than likely frustrated with officiating if its not called fairly. I long for the days of excitement and big winning again, but its been many years now since I got to attend a NCAA Tournament game where I could be yelling for Vandy!

[Hutch37]

the timeout hoarding comes from his Carolina connections- As beloved as Roy was the UNC faithful never understood his refusal to call timeouts, especially to stop a run - the exact opposite was CBD who would often enter the 2nd half with only 1 TO left

[ymtn64]

I will confess that I pretty much understand Coach Stallings usage of time outs, and I mostly agreed with his view of when to call timeout. I understand what you are saying about Roy/UNC refusal to call time outs, but didn't Coach Stackhouse play for Dean Smith? How does Roy influence Coach Stackhouse, unless you are saying as a former UNC player he would of seen that and come to think it was wise?

I do understand you aren't agreeing with him on how he uses timeouts but only explaining it, and I'm grateful for what you shared Hutch37

[Doreknox]

I will confess that I pretty much understand Coach Stallings usage of time outs, and I mostly agreed with his view of when to call timeout. I understand what you are saying about Roy/UNC refusal to call time outs, but didn't Coach Stackhouse play for Dean Smith? How does Roy influence Coach Stackhouse, unless you are saying as a former UNC player he would of seen that and come to think it was wise?

I do understand you aren't agreeing with him on how he uses timeouts but only explaining it, and I'm grateful for what you shared Hutch37

Eddie Folger, a Dean Smith disciple, used timeouts as well as any VU coach I remember.

[docdore]

[quote=ymtn64 post_id=187763 time=1673541268 user_id=113]
One more thing, I believe I heard the announcers say this during the Missouri game, but it could of been another game. Either way, they said that Coach Stackhouse admitted he is still learning the college game from a coaching standpoint. My jaw dropped at this comment. He has coached now for 3 1/2 seasons, and he still doesn't understand how to coach a college basketball game? Even if that is true, WHY WHY WHY tell that to the tv commentators?

IF he truly said that, it demonstrates exceptionally candid self-awareness....and clearly shows how unprepared he was for being a college-level head coach. maybe he'll figure it out yet....

[VUaskew]

ahh, Eddie the God Fogler...

[dore74]

Thanks for the response Jason, we are on the same page re player usage. If some of our "should be" starters want to come in later why not start with the three you propose as our other rotation players.
Let's see what unfolds on Saturday.

[ymtn64]

One more thing, I believe I heard the announcers say this during the Missouri game, but it could of been another game. Either way, they said that Coach Stackhouse admitted he is still learning the college game from a coaching standpoint. My jaw dropped at this comment. He has coached now for 3 1/2 seasons, and he still doesn't understand how to coach a college basketball game? Even if that is true, WHY WHY WHY tell that to the tv commentators?

IF he truly said that, it demonstrates exceptionally candid self-awareness....and clearly shows how unprepared he was for being a college-level head coach. maybe he'll figure it out yet....

I assumed it was true since they said it as a part of the broadcast. I actually think I missed the next minute of the game because it shocked me. I agree its exceptionally candid self-awareness, but I wouldn't think it best to admit that to his boss. Surely a guy who has lived a large majority of his life in the public eye realized they would share what he said. I will say it told me LOTS about his thinking, and not something to be proud of for sure.

[alathIN]

Unfortunately, Dort didn't play at all in the 2nd half until the fat lady had sung, and Shelby found himself next to him on the pine for most of the half as well.

This is the part I don't understand.

Drop off after Pippen. Understandable.
Team is stronger in the frontcourt than the back court. Yeah, it happens.
Of our upperclassmen guards, one is iffy outside the arc and the other one is iffy on defense and not much of an assist generator. Yeah, that can happen. You never know how guys are going to develop. Understandable.
You have a big man who's a force, but his conditioning is a little off from an injury season. So you can't play him as many minutes as you want. Yeah, understandable.

But:
Your highly touted freshman guard is still a little iffy on defense and hasn't yet proven himself to be an assist machine. But he's already shown some good shooting in very limited minutes. And you sit him on the bench in favor of an upperclassmen who's been iffy on defense and not generating assists for three straight years?
Your highly touted freshman big man is in great shape. Commits too many fouls, but otherwise looks really good. Seems like he could spell your not-optimally-conditioned big man?
And they're you know... freshmen. So they could easily improve in their iffy areas with more experience... right?

I feel like things are moving in the right direction, but very slowly.
If I squint my eyes I can sort of see a pretty good team at the end of the season - but it seems like this is happening so slowly season there won't be much to salvage when we get this all figured out.