Stackhouse

[UltimateVUFan]

I think charleston’s point can’t be overstated. VU is at a distinct disadvantage based on admissions standards and transfer limitations. Most comparisons to other schools are apples:oranges. We don’t have to like it or agree with the practice. But it’s also undeniably true.

[Doreknox]

At the risk of beating a moribund horse: Vanderbilt does not have access to transfer portal other schools do. How many "students" at Cleveland State can get admitted to VU, I ask. The portal and free flow of talent except to places like Vanderbilt has made coaching at VU immeasurably more difficult than for previous coaches and makes our previous success all the more historically irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying but it is not entirely true. Three of our current top players came to VU via the portal. A lot of transfers won't qualify for admission, but there are some who certainly will. Two of the best players in our program's history - McCaffrey and Byers - came to us by transfer.

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have. Both squads were far better coached than our team, too. CJS is a bust. It's time to pull the plug and hire a real college basketball coach.

[MrMemorial]

Let me guess...you want Belmont's coach...he looks like Ollie from the Hoosiers movie. Wait...they lost to Terlingstone State this season. (And were recently blown out by Southern Illinois)

Or maybe Lipscomb's coach. Wait...they lost to Bama A&M, TSU, Stetson, etc.

[Doreknox]

Let me guess...you want Belmont's coach...he looks like Ollie from the Hoosiers movie. Wait...they lost to Terlingstone State this season. (And were recently blown out by Southern Illinois)

Or maybe Lipscomb's coach. Wait...they lost to Bama A&M, TSU, Stetson, etc.

Our we could keep our current mistake of a coach. Wait, he lost to Grambling, Southern Miss, et al.

[Jason94]

The lamest for a coach or player to make, but also actually the most true.

I can see nitpicking a coach who is winning a ton of games. But certainly a coach who has a bad record at a school that historically has been pretty good at basketball seems like fair game. It seems reasonable to think that if everything he were doing was correct that we'd be a whole lot better than we are. CKS was certainly not above criticism, and had us a whole lot closer to our schools potential than we are today. We may be wrong with what is wrong with the program, but there is SOMETHING wrong. Missouri is a pretty stark contrast - they fired their coach last season and almost completely turned over their roster and are in great shape to make the tournament in year 1. Same thing with Iowa St. last season. Massive turnarounds are more possible than every before due to the transfer portal and immediate eligibility.

At the risk of beating a moribund horse: Vanderbilt does not have access to transfer portal other schools do. How many "students" at Cleveland State can get admitted to VU, I ask. The portal and free flow of talent except to places like Vanderbilt has made coaching at VU immeasurably more difficult than for previous coaches and makes our previous success all the more historically irrelevant.

This is not new - it has always been more difficult to get into Vanderbilt than other schools. But the transfer portal allows team to get players who are eligible immediately - that is the key difference. CJS was able to grab Robbins and he could play immediately - part of the issue I think is that he fundamentally thinks that a backcourt of Manjon, Lawrence and Thomas is fine for what he wants to run. But without a doubt the transfer portal makes rebuilds much faster. It might be two years instead of 1 at a school like Vanderbilt, but it is different.

The second difference is that previously coaches had to use 3 years of scholarships to get 2 years out of a transfer, or 4 for 3, etc. This is no longer the case, and the cost of grabbing a transfer is far less expensive than it used to be.

The third difference is that unlike freshmen, with transfers you have 1) film of them playing against D1 competition and 2) stats of how they performed in the minutes they played. A huge amount of the risk associated with freshmen recruiting is eliminated with the transfer portal.

The transfer portal is the greatest shockwave in college basketball since the advent of the three point line. Coaches who don't understand this are very far behind in the game. That isn't to say that you have to or should build your program around them, but you can fill any weaknesses with a proven player who is immediately available if you are willing to scout around. 10 years ago there were a little less than 600 available transfers. Last season there were almost 1800. And all we have to identify and grab is 1 or 2 players who fill needs every season. Don't tell me those players don't exist. Yes fewer of them are eligible to attend Vanderbilt than other schools, but this has always been the case and is not an excuse for a coach who accepts the position.

[UltimateVUFan]

At the risk of beating a moribund horse: Vanderbilt does not have access to transfer portal other schools do. How many "students" at Cleveland State can get admitted to VU, I ask. The portal and free flow of talent except to places like Vanderbilt has made coaching at VU immeasurably more difficult than for previous coaches and makes our previous success all the more historically irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying but it is not entirely true. Three of our current top players came to VU via the portal. A lot of transfers won't qualify for admission, but there are some who certainly will. Two of the best players in our program's history - McCaffrey and Byers - came to us by transfer.

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have. Both squads were far better coached than our team, too. CJS is a bust. It's time to pull the plug and hire a real college basketball coach.

McCaffrey came from Duke. Byars from Virginia. Two similarly academically-oriented universities. They were also transfers from a much different time in terms of admissions standards. VU’s acceptance rate has become increasingly competitive over the years. Not to mention recent changes to the transfer portal that make VU at an even greater disadvantage, which have been chronicled many times already.
Even some of VU’s recent non-grad transfers have been from relatively strong universities. Some that come to mind are Matt Ryan from Notre Dame, QMB from Rice, Terren Frank from TCU. VU has limited options in the pool.
I distinguish non-grad based on statements documented from Coach Ralph re: mid-career transfers.

[Jason94]

At the risk of beating a moribund horse: Vanderbilt does not have access to transfer portal other schools do. How many "students" at Cleveland State can get admitted to VU, I ask. The portal and free flow of talent except to places like Vanderbilt has made coaching at VU immeasurably more difficult than for previous coaches and makes our previous success all the more historically irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying but it is not entirely true. Three of our current top players came to VU via the portal. A lot of transfers won't qualify for admission, but there are some who certainly will. Two of the best players in our program's history - McCaffrey and Byers - came to us by transfer.

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have. Both squads were far better coached than our team, too. CJS is a bust. It's time to pull the plug and hire a real college basketball coach.

McCaffrey came from Duke. Byars from Virginia. Two similarly academically-oriented universities. They were also transfers from a much different time in terms of admissions standards. VU’s acceptance rate has become increasingly competitive over the years. Not to mention recent changes to the transfer portal that make VU at an even greater disadvantage, which have been chronicled many times already.
Even some of VU’s recent non-grad transfers have been from relatively strong universities. Some that come to mind are Matt Ryan from Notre Dame, QMB from Rice, Terren Frank from TCU. VU has limited options in the pool.
I distinguish non-grad based on statements documented from Coach Ralph re: mid-career transfers.

I disagree that the standards have dramatically changed in recent years. Players on recent rosters - Robbins went to Minnesota; Ansong went to Green Bay by way of Wheeling University. Chatman played at Dayton, McBride originally committed to Kansas. We can without a doubt get in students who went to schools outside of the top 25 if they are in good standings academically. The transfer portal provides a pretty strong disadvantage to mid-major programs who have and will continue to see high major teams pick off their best players, but it is only a disadvantage to us if we don't utilize it.

[MrMemorial]

Let me guess...you want Belmont's coach...he looks like Ollie from the Hoosiers movie. Wait...they lost to Terlingstone State this season. (And were recently blown out by Southern Illinois)

Or maybe Lipscomb's coach. Wait...they lost to Bama A&M, TSU, Stetson, etc.

Our we could keep our current mistake of a coach. Wait, he lost to Grambling, Southern Miss, et al.

In case you don't know (and indicated by your lack of hoops knowledge, you probably don't)...

USM is 14-3.

You VS poster types are all alike. You all begged and pleaded for Will Healy to be hired on West End when in reality he was not even qualified to be the coach at upstart mid-major Charlotte. He had never been a coordinator on either side of the ball on any level, went .500 the first year at Charlotte with the old guy's talent and then went straight to crap...having been hired based solely on his rah-rah personality. I can see it right now...people will beg and plead for some some guy who looks like their nephew to be the next hoops coach on West End and he will end up worse than your guy who lost 20 in a row.

[Jason94]

Let me guess...you want Belmont's coach...he looks like Ollie from the Hoosiers movie. Wait...they lost to Terlingstone State this season. (And were recently blown out by Southern Illinois)

Or maybe Lipscomb's coach. Wait...they lost to Bama A&M, TSU, Stetson, etc.

Our we could keep our current mistake of a coach. Wait, he lost to Grambling, Southern Miss, et al.

In case you don't know (and indicated by your lack of hoops knowledge, you probably don't)...

USM is 14-3.

You VS poster types are all alike. You all begged and pleaded for Will Healy to be hired on West End when in reality he was not even qualified to be the coach at upstart mid-major Charlotte. He had never been a coordinator on either side of the ball on any level, went .500 the first year at Charlotte with the old guy's talent and then went straight to crap...having been hired based solely on his rah-rah personality. I can see it right now...people will beg and plead for some some guy who looks like their nephew to be the next hoops coach on West End and he will end up worse than your guy who lost 20 in a row.

Did we beat USM? I must have missed that. Is that feather in our cap that they are 14-3 playing against bad competition because we only lost by 12 on our home court? Are you comforted by the fact that they are 14-3 having beaten such luminaries as William Carey, Loyola LA and Mobile? Or perhaps it was their impressive wins against Lamar (twice) McNeese St. or Louisiana Monroe (that's right, 7 of their 14 wins come against bottom 300 teams of non-D1 competition). They've perhaps been upgraded from worst loss ever to just a really bad loss on our home floor, but odd to be proud of a loss.

What is more frustrating is that had we had the effort yesterday in that game we would have wiped the floor with USM. That makes losing to them by 12 and only scoring 48 points in the process look all the worse. Similar to the Grambling loss - we lost those games not because our talent is inferior, but because we played so poorly.

[MrMemorial]

Pitt is 11-5 with wins over UNC, Virginia, NC State... and the Stack haters still don't want to acknowledge that win. So, Mrs. Pomeroy...who do you want for the next coach that is reasonably able to be hired?

No Jay Wright or Dana Altman type answers will be accepted. Those would be delusional.

[Jason94]

Pitt is 11-5 with wins over UNC, Virginia, NC State... and the Stack haters still don't want to acknowledge that win. So, Mrs. Pomeroy...who do you want for the next coach that is reasonably able to be hired?

No Jay Wright or Dana Altman type answers will be accepted. Those would be delusional.

Given your lack of statistical comprehension, I'll take the moniker! You're the one who thinks Thomas going 2-2 from the line on the season is actually a positive! So of course you wouldn't understand half of what I post and it shows.

I've said I don't want a new coach - I want this CJS to succeed - same as with CKS. Only you have changed your tune from winning being unacceptable from the latter to losing being A-Ok with the former. Changing coaches means losing current players and committed recruits - it should only be if he fails to show that he is building a program. Because any criticism is apparently unacceptable to you, you fail to understand that I'm noting that his moves are unconventional, and if they don't work will lead to a poor record, worsening attendance, and irrelevance for the program, which is something I do not want to see.

I've acknowledged Pitt is a decent win - they are not yet in the tournament but have certainly put themselves in a better position than we are in. But you seem to miss that each game is not taken in isolation - you have to take a look at the entire record. While some don't bring up Pitt, you've managed to completely ignore the loss to Grambling, which is the worst loss in MBB history. This is a team that lost to Incarnate Word and lost to Grand Canyon by 33 points! Since you've assigned yourself as the monitor of what CBD is doing - it is surprising that you missed that as bad as he is, he managed to destroy a team we lost to at home.

I've tried to help you but you instead wish to call me names instead of pulling yourself out of your own ignorance. But people tend to make fun of what they don't understand, and you are a prime example of that. I do feel sorry for you that all you are left with are you jpegs and names in lieu of logical arguments. I would suggest staying out of the deep end of the pool since you are struggling with keeping your head above water.

[MrMemorial]

Sounds like there is a toddler out there getting very cranky. Past her bedtime!!

[mathguy]

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have.

This touches on something I've been thinking lately.

In the '80s, "shooting" was a skill that, let's be honest, was associated with less athletic players. And as a result, a lot of great shooters were perhaps undervalued for the totality of their games (or, in the cases of true greats like Larry Bird, held up as an incredible example of what he accomplished despite his athletic limitations). In contrast, it did not hinder MIchael Jordan at ALL that he really didn't have a jump shot for his first 5 or 6 years in the league.

It makes we wonder if for a long time, Vanderbilt recruited in a Moneyball-style bubble. Billy Beane's Moneyball approach was "what are the valuable things that other teams don't realize are worth paying for ... let's corner the market on those things". And as the rest of the league caught up the importance of OBP and slugging pct, The Oakland A's pivoted ... first to have an outstanding defense and then later to having a nearly all-platoon lineup that they took to the playoffs. They have contstantly reinvented "what is the valuable skill that is overlooked".

Well, shooting is not overlooked anymore. The 3-point line has become SO prevalent, that you could argue shooting is the single most important skill, and what separates good prospects from great ones. So as we have lamented the lack of great shooters on our roster in recent years ... is that because we've failed to identify that need? Or is it because shooters are a hotter commodity these days and have become harder to recruit? As a program that is only rarely going to attract top 50 national recruits, is there a different efficiency that we can exploit?

Just a thought. Curious what others think.

[dore74]

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have.

This touches on something I've been thinking lately.

In the '80s, "shooting" was a skill that, let's be honest, was associated with less athletic players. And as a result, a lot of great shooters were perhaps undervalued for the totality of their games (or, in the cases of true greats like Larry Bird, held up as an incredible example of what he accomplished despite his athletic limitations). In contrast, it did not hinder MIchael Jordan at ALL that he really didn't have a jump shot for his first 5 or 6 years in the league.

It makes we wonder if for a long time, Vanderbilt recruited in a Moneyball-style bubble. Billy Beane's Moneyball approach was "what are the valuable things that other teams don't realize are worth paying for ... let's corner the market on those things". And as the rest of the league caught up the importance of OBP and slugging pct, The Oakland A's pivoted ... first to have an outstanding defense and then later to having a nearly all-platoon lineup that they took to the playoffs. They have contstantly reinvented "what is the valuable skill that is overlooked".

Well, shooting is not overlooked anymore. The 3-point line has become SO prevalent, that you could argue shooting is the single most important skill, and what separates good prospects from great ones. So as we have lamented the lack of great shooters on our roster in recent years ... is that because we've failed to identify that need? Or is it because shooters are a hotter commodity these days and have become harder to recruit? As a program that is only rarely going to attract top 50 national recruits, is there a different efficiency that we can exploit?

Just a thought. Curious what others think.

Very, very interesting post. Frankly I don’t know enough inside baseball (couldn’t help myself) to cogently comment on the particulars. Gotta think that Stack and the staff are up on statistical analysis but gotta wonder if they, or anyone is thinking out of the analytic box. And let’s be clear, we are very analogous to a small market team.
Gotta say in business I’ve taken this route and it nearly all instances I’ve come up empty. But the exercise was always worth the time. Some minds better than mine may have suggestions.
Regardless great post, thanks

[Doreknox]

Let me guess...you want Belmont's coach...he looks like Ollie from the Hoosiers movie. Wait...they lost to Terlingstone State this season. (And were recently blown out by Southern Illinois)

Or maybe Lipscomb's coach. Wait...they lost to Bama A&M, TSU, Stetson, etc.

Our we could keep our current mistake of a coach. Wait, he lost to Grambling, Southern Miss, et al.

In case you don't know (and indicated by your lack of hoops knowledge, you probably don't)...

USM is 14-3.

You VS poster types are all alike. You all begged and pleaded for Will Healy to be hired on West End when in reality he was not even qualified to be the coach at upstart mid-major Charlotte. He had never been a coordinator on either side of the ball on any level, went .500 the first year at Charlotte with the old guy's talent and then went straight to crap...having been hired based solely on his rah-rah personality. I can see it right now...people will beg and plead for some some guy who looks like their nephew to be the next hoops coach on West End and he will end up worse than your guy who lost 20 in a row.

It's never ok for an SEC basketball squad to lose to teams from Conference USA or SWAC, no matter what their records are. You still harp on CKS for losing to Marist (in the NCAA tournament, mind you) but you defend CJS for losing to non-Power 5 schools. You can't have it both ways.

[MrMemorial]

Our we could keep our current mistake of a coach. Wait, he lost to Grambling, Southern Miss, et al.

In case you don't know (and indicated by your lack of hoops knowledge, you probably don't)...

USM is 14-3.

You VS poster types are all alike. You all begged and pleaded for Will Healy to be hired on West End when in reality he was not even qualified to be the coach at upstart mid-major Charlotte. He had never been a coordinator on either side of the ball on any level, went .500 the first year at Charlotte with the old guy's talent and then went straight to crap...having been hired based solely on his rah-rah personality. I can see it right now...people will beg and plead for some some guy who looks like their nephew to be the next hoops coach on West End and he will end up worse than your guy who lost 20 in a row.

It's never ok for an SEC basketball squad to lose to teams from Conference USA or SWAC, no matter what their records are. You still harp on CKS for losing to Marist (in the NCAA tournament, mind you) but you defend CJS for losing to non-Power 5 schools. You can't have it both ways.

Yep... your hoops "knowledge" would fit in a thimble with room left over.

Vandy vs Marist "in the NCAA tournament" - ??

November 23, 2012

They must have been holding "March Madness" a wee bit early that season.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other teams CKS lost to...

Monmouth
Southern Illinois
Furman
Appy State
UIC
WKU
Cleveland St.
Indiana State
MTSU
Butler (x2)

But-but-but-but...

It's NEVER ok for an SEC basketball squad to lose to a mid-major!

**VU was blown out by #13 seed Siena in the NCAA in 2008...

[vandy05]

I think the lamest of all posts goes something like: "You have no business criticizing strategy A or development/use of players B and C because you don't know as much as the coach does."

The lamest for a coach or player to make, but also actually the most true.

I can see nitpicking a coach who is winning a ton of games. But certainly a coach who has a bad record at a school that historically has been pretty good at basketball seems like fair game. It seems reasonable to think that if everything he were doing was correct that we'd be a whole lot better than we are. CKS was certainly not above criticism, and had us a whole lot closer to our schools potential than we are today. We may be wrong with what is wrong with the program, but there is SOMETHING wrong. Missouri is a pretty stark contrast - they fired their coach last season and almost completely turned over their roster and are in great shape to make the tournament in year 1. Same thing with Iowa St. last season. Massive turnarounds are more possible than every before due to the transfer portal and immediate eligibility.

You actually know hoops though and understand the game. Most people don't. They're just firing off because they had too much whiskey after the game. Some people know, but most don't.

[VandyManners]

At the risk of beating a moribund horse: Vanderbilt does not have access to transfer portal other schools do. How many "students" at Cleveland State can get admitted to VU, I ask. The portal and free flow of talent except to places like Vanderbilt has made coaching at VU immeasurably more difficult than for previous coaches and makes our previous success all the more historically irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying but it is not entirely true. Three of our current top players came to VU via the portal. A lot of transfers won't qualify for admission, but there are some who certainly will. Two of the best players in our program's history - McCaffrey and Byers - came to us by transfer.

I watched the San Diego State - Wyoming game yesterday. I think at least three starters from both teams would start for us. We just don't have the talent and shooting ability that other teams have. Both squads were far better coached than our team, too. CJS is a bust. It's time to pull the plug and hire a real college basketball coach.

Don't forget Bruce Elder. Loved that guy. Transferred from Davidson I believe.

[VandyManners]

The lamest for a coach or player to make, but also actually the most true.

I can see nitpicking a coach who is winning a ton of games. But certainly a coach who has a bad record at a school that historically has been pretty good at basketball seems like fair game. It seems reasonable to think that if everything he were doing was correct that we'd be a whole lot better than we are. CKS was certainly not above criticism, and had us a whole lot closer to our schools potential than we are today. We may be wrong with what is wrong with the program, but there is SOMETHING wrong. Missouri is a pretty stark contrast - they fired their coach last season and almost completely turned over their roster and are in great shape to make the tournament in year 1. Same thing with Iowa St. last season. Massive turnarounds are more possible than every before due to the transfer portal and immediate eligibility.

You actually know hoops though and understand the game. Most people don't. They're just firing off because they had too much whiskey after the game. Some people know, but most don't.

Win or lose, I do love a good whiskey before, during, and after the game. In fact, during the Missouri game I was drinking a Larceny Barrel Proof batch C922. It was the best Larceny BP I've ever had.

Wait, sorry. For a minute I thought I was on my whiskey site.

[docdore]

I can see nitpicking a coach who is winning a ton of games. But certainly a coach who has a bad record at a school that historically has been pretty good at basketball seems like fair game. It seems reasonable to think that if everything he were doing was correct that we'd be a whole lot better than we are. CKS was certainly not above criticism, and had us a whole lot closer to our schools potential than we are today. We may be wrong with what is wrong with the program, but there is SOMETHING wrong. Missouri is a pretty stark contrast - they fired their coach last season and almost completely turned over their roster and are in great shape to make the tournament in year 1. Same thing with Iowa St. last season. Massive turnarounds are more possible than every before due to the transfer portal and immediate eligibility.

You actually know hoops though and understand the game. Most people don't. They're just firing off because they had too much whiskey after the game. Some people know, but most don't.

Win or lose, I do love a good whiskey before, during, and after the game. In fact, during the Missouri game I was drinking a Larceny Barrel Proof batch C922. It was the best Larceny BP I've ever had.

Wait, sorry. For a minute I thought I was on my whiskey site.

adult beverages have been helpful during games in the last ten years.