Stackhouse

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MemorialMagic
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by MemorialMagic »

charlestonalum wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:05 pm OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings

Anyone else have an opinion?
Okay I'll play:

1. Fogler - he gets the nod over Skinner because I saw him, and he's here because we won a lot of games simply because he was the coach. Games that we had no business winning with the talent we had. And I don't know that I've ever seen a team systematically destroy teams with such precision as that 92-93 team. The most intelligent coach I've ever seen. (Plus, he gave me a free pair of basketball shoes)
2. Skinner - I never saw him coach, but I take everyone's word for it
3, Newton - He gets the nod here because a) he was such a nice guy and b) he (along with Pitino) was one of the first to recognize that the 3 point shot was a true game changer, and immediately adapt his coaching to taking advantage of it. I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for his coaching acumen. His teams at Alabama were dominant, and when he came here, the program was at a real low point. Not Bryce Drew low, but low. And he managed to engineer our rise to be within a tennis ball technical of winning the SEC his final year. (Gosh as I write this, I really do think he is massively undervalued as a coach)
4. Stackhouse - Stallings's results ended up being better for now, but I think Stack will get there, and really the results aren't in the same time frame aren't massively different. Plus Stack came into a program that had been systematically destroyed by the previous coach and has been building that back. Plus he's had to deal with the transfer portal and NIL. Stack is stern, but he's not nearly as big of a jerk as Stallings is.
5. Stallings - A solid coach. Some very good results, and I think really established a firm foundation for the program in general. His teams with the worst talent over performed, but his teams with the most talent underperformed. And he was a massive jerk. I knew him pretty well, and he has some serious personality issues. Ultimately he was self-aware enough to hire a top assistant that could complement that. Tim Jankovich and Tom Richardson are some of the nices people you will ever meet.


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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Foreverhopeful »

The problem is that this is a different era. The changes in the players, the game, the whole NIL thing since Stallings have completely changed the landscape, so I think it is impossible to compare Stack and Stallings now. We all know who our worst coach was, though. No landscape would have changed that. Many players stayed 4 years in the Stallings era....
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Ndorefin »

I would have to put Fogler at the top…he was a great tactician and was successful with less talent. Skinner coached in a different league than the coaches of today. Skinner was not a great motivator or game coach. His best teams were led by outstanding floor generals, who basically ran the team such as John Ed Miller, Southwood, and the best of them all, van Breda Kolff. Skinner also coached when most of the rest of the league viewed basketball as an afterthought and prior to integration. When Maravich was a sophomore, he played with the worst talent I’ve ever seen in the SEC. It’s not a stretch to say without Pete, they wouldn’t have won a single game! Jan van Breda Kolff and his team was recruited by Bargatze followed by the F-Troop. I thought Stallings was an underrated coach, who did a great job recruiting at times and just struck out at other times.

It’s not fair to rate Stack on his record because he started during Covid, without the benefit of time to recruit. The players he signed were primarily what he could scramble together to form a team. They weren’t SEC caliber, but his choices were extremely limited at that time. He developed Lee and Pippen into really good college players and the same with Nesmith. Disu would have been a dominant player and would probably be a pro if he had stayed. He has an eye for talent and developing them into a team. We don’t know what he is up against as far as getting players in school, as in the past we wouldn’t publicly offer a recruit until he could gain admission to school….we aren’t privy to the players we lost because of this. He didn’t start from scratch, he started from 2 years of below zero and it’s extra difficult to build from such a place when you’re facing the extra hurdle of the admissions process. I certainly admire his dedication to VU, as lessor men would have been long gone having to overcome the obstacles he has dealt with. He doesn’t believe in failure, which is why he wants to do it his way despite the criticism.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by geeznotagain »

True, it’s impossible to judge coaches from different eras. Skinner, in particular, because he coached before Black athletes were such a dominant force in our conference. But I’ll say this about Skinner’s teams. He coached the best passing teams of any VU team that I’ve ever seen. And his teams could run the most perfect 3 on 2 fast break I’ve ever seen.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Jason94 »

MemorialMagic wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:56 pm
charlestonalum wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:05 pm OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings

Anyone else have an opinion?
Okay I'll play:

1. Fogler - he gets the nod over Skinner because I saw him, and he's here because we won a lot of games simply because he was the coach. Games that we had no business winning with the talent we had. And I don't know that I've ever seen a team systematically destroy teams with such precision as that 92-93 team. The most intelligent coach I've ever seen. (Plus, he gave me a free pair of basketball shoes)
2. Skinner - I never saw him coach, but I take everyone's word for it
3, Newton - He gets the nod here because a) he was such a nice guy and b) he (along with Pitino) was one of the first to recognize that the 3 point shot was a true game changer, and immediately adapt his coaching to taking advantage of it. I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for his coaching acumen. His teams at Alabama were dominant, and when he came here, the program was at a real low point. Not Bryce Drew low, but low. And he managed to engineer our rise to be within a tennis ball technical of winning the SEC his final year. (Gosh as I write this, I really do think he is massively undervalued as a coach)
4. Stackhouse - Stallings's results ended up being better for now, but I think Stack will get there, and really the results aren't in the same time frame aren't massively different. Plus Stack came into a program that had been systematically destroyed by the previous coach and has been building that back. Plus he's had to deal with the transfer portal and NIL. Stack is stern, but he's not nearly as big of a jerk as Stallings is.
5. Stallings - A solid coach. Some very good results, and I think really established a firm foundation for the program in general. His teams with the worst talent over performed, but his teams with the most talent underperformed. And he was a massive jerk. I knew him pretty well, and he has some serious personality issues. Ultimately he was self-aware enough to hire a top assistant that could complement that. Tim Jankovich and Tom Richardson are some of the nices people you will ever meet.
While I love CEF because I was on campus during his tenure, it is impossible to have his 4 seasons ahead of some of the other coaches on the list. Having him ahead of Skinner is pretty absurd even if Skinner largely coached before I was born. Just because I didn't witness it doesn't mean it didn't happen. He had 1 great season which I will never forget, but he also had the benefit of taking over from a coach who left the program in great shape, which isn't true for anyone else on the list.

Skinner was at VU for 16 seasons, made two tournament appearances (which were equivalent to sweet 16 or better) and would have made the touranment at least 6 or 7 more times had the format been what it is today. He also brought in the first AA player in SEC history. I don't have to have had been aware of Skinner at the time to know that he was the #1 coach in VU history and it not be particularly close.

Newton did some really good things at the end of his tenure, but it would be absurdly easy for CJS to be ahead of Newton through 5 seasons just by making the tournament this season (and one could argue that CJS is ahead of Newton through year 4). Newton's record in year 5 was 13-15 (7-11). Regardless of how bad Schmidt was, he couldn't have been so bad to be keeping coach Newton from having a winning record in year 5. We didn't make the tournament under Newton until year 7 and his best overall record was 20-11 in the sweet 16 season. He had memorable games but no great seasons.

I'd say that you are massively underrating CKS based upon his being an ass. Regardless of whether his teams "underperformed" (which based upon his players sticking in the NBA is debatable), you cannot simply wave away making the tournament 5 of 6 seasons, multiple sweet 16's, a SEC championship, and multiple wins against #1 teams. Objectively, CKS is clearly #2 on this list by a pretty wide margin. CJS has a ways to go to catch him, much less pass him. It is possible, but I would guess it is more likely that CJS doesn't stick around long enough if his trajectory were to become one that would pass CKS.

Stackhouse has a lot of promise and potential, but to this point it has been just that. He flat out needs to make the tournament next season based on the talent on this roster. I think he will do so, but essentially, CJS hasn't done anything yet to be considered anywhere but the bottom of this list. He is well ahead of a coach like VBK, but VBK did make the tournament and the NIT three times in 6 seasons.

So my list would be (based on results on the court)
Skinner
Stallings
Fogler
Newton
Stackhouse.

The last three are pretty close because the tenures were so short overall, and CJS could pass Newton very easily in two seasons. Similarly with a single great season he could pass Fogler.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Ndorefin »

Based on results on the courts, there is no question Skinner is #1. Using that criteria, I would have to say Bob Polk (who preceded Skinner), was #2.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by MemorialMagic »

If you had to pick a coach off this list to coach one game for your life. Who would you pick?
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Ndorefin »

MemorialMagic wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:41 pm If you had to pick a coach off this list to coach one game for your life. Who would you pick?
Grinnell Jones! I’ve never seen him coach, but if you go by results on the court, he was undefeated!!!
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by MemorialMagic »

Ndorefin wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:17 pm
MemorialMagic wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:41 pm If you had to pick a coach off this list to coach one game for your life. Who would you pick?
Grinnell Jones! I’ve never seen him coach, but if you go by results on the court, he was undefeated!!!
Is he on the list?
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Jason94 »

MemorialMagic wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:41 pm If you had to pick a coach off this list to coach one game for your life. Who would you pick?
Probably Fogler, but a head BB coach is far more than in game coaching. CBB coaches also have to recruit, develop and maintain the roster. CEF was a superior X's and O's guy, but would he have had long term success as high as he hit in 1993? Probably not unless he had gotten really lucky in the grabbing a transfer, as his overall recruiting was not great.

Note that CEF finished his coaching career with a grand total of 2 wins in the NCAA tournament. The 1993 team beat two teams it was supposed to beat in the tournament and his teams were upset twice at USC, including a 15-2 upset. CKS was able to upset more talented teams twice to reach the sweet 16, and did it a third time to get to the Elite 8 minus a non-called walk on Jeff Green (who is still playing in the NBA). So while you recall the bad games that CKS had in the tournament, CEF was not without his own duds.

The question you asked is not quite so cut and dried as it might seem on the surface.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by alathIN »

Stackhouse seems to imprint a lot of toughness on his teams. He can be brilliant in-game coaching.
He, his staff, and his players seem to conduct themselves well; we haven't had any scandals or embarrassments.
We have seen players improve their games dramatically. There were times on this board it was a serious question whether the light would ever come on for Tyrin Lawrence.
Jordan Wright was mostly unrecruited and was regarded as little more than a warm body for practice when he signed; he became a legit SEC starter in his time at Vanderbilt.
There's plenty to like in Stackhouse.

I do think he has pointlessly antagonized some people. Not saying his Twitter rants etc make him unfit to coach, but the original question was why are some people so negative about Stack, and for some people that might be why.

Managing the roster and the lineups has not always gone well, but as Jason said seems to be improving.

I am really guessing here based on vague impressions, but I get the sense that Stackhouse doesn't have a lot of patience for immaturity or prima donnas. He's spent most of his career dealing with adult professionals, and I don't see him pampering the egos of entitled teenagers who've been told their whole lives how great they are and whose parents think they deserve to go straight from high school to the NBA All Star Game.
I think sometimes he'd rather play a hard working less talented player and let the teenage prima donna sulk on the bench.
There is probably some diplomacy in managing these young egos that Stackhouse may not have much patience for.
This anyway is my theory why we keep losing players to the portal who could have developed into contributors.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by rEvUrB »

I think frustration with Stackhouse is in large part a reflection of the frustration with the programs itself and the growing angst that maybe our best days are behind us. The downhill slide started at the end of Stallings, nose dived under Drew and has been struggling to get its head above water since. The longer the recovery takes the more desperate the fan base gets especially since, for most fans, basketball is the schools bellwether team.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by buffy »

charlestonalum wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:05 pm OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings
1. Skinner
2. Stallings
3. Fogler (as much as we loved him, Billy Mac and co. had a lot to do with that one season. Look at those two first round turds with SC)
4. Stackhouse (for now, although he has the potential to go to the top)
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by mathguy »

Jason94 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:27 am

I'd say that you are massively underrating CKS based upon his being an ass. Regardless of whether his teams "underperformed" (which based upon his players sticking in the NBA is debatable), you cannot simply wave away making the tournament 5 of 6 seasons, multiple sweet 16's, a SEC championship, and multiple wins against #1 teams. Objectively, CKS is clearly #2 on this list by a pretty wide margin.
I agree. I think that poster has disliked Stallings for quite some time. Stallings had some early struggles at Vandy cleaning up some roster issues left for him (though he did nearly make the tourney his first season, except for a particularly egregious snub), and also had some issues late in his tenure. But...

You could argue that the 10 years beginning with 2003-2004 are the best 10 years the program has ever seen (2 sweet 16s, 1 SECT, 8 yrs of 20+ wins, 6 years with time spent in the top 20) ... it's hard to compare across eras, especially eras that came before the NCAA tourney expansion when you play in the same conference as Kentucky, but I will acknowledge you could also argue a 10 year stretch starting at 1959-60, during which we were over .500 9 times and ended with a stretch of 5 seasons where we spent time ranked in the top 10. But at worst, Stallings gave us the 2nd best decade of basketball we've ever seen.

He's also the winningest coach in school history, the longest tenured coach in school history, and gave us that wonderful wonderful moment (which I am horrified to be unable to find on youtube!!) when he played keepaway with Joakim Noah. He gave us 3 SEC Players of the Year (and exactly why did Matt Freije make it 4?) and coached the 3 leading scorers in program history.

When Stallings left/was pushed out it was definitely time for him to go ... but lets not forget that he gave us a great run while he was here.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Mcflash »

CKS was an excellent coach Xs and 0s and should rank high on this list. I think most of his problems stemmed from going from coaching at a Gene Keady philosophy level where there was a lot of tough love and discipline to an environment where he had to pamper certain individuals did not work out for him. At times he was unable to step into another mindset. A lot of people called him a rear end, but I think you have to see where he came from and who he learned his chops from. Also, whenever I had any contact with him, which was rare, he was always friendly and congenial and had a wicked sense of humor I appreciated. I agree it was time for him to go, but I also have to say there have been times since his departure when I've really missed him.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by rEvUrB »

buffy wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:36 am
charlestonalum wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:05 pm OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings
1. Skinner
2. Stallings
3. Fogler (as much as we loved him, Billy Mac and co. had a lot to do with that one season. Look at those two first round turds with SC)
4. Stackhouse (for now, although he has the potential to go to the top)
While I agree Stackhouse could get to the top, he has to be below CM Newton at this point. Newton reversed Vanderbilts fortunes by embracing the three point shot when it still seen as largely a gimmick and because of that was able to do a lot more with a lot less. Those 80s teams were so fun.

Stallings was a victim of his own success in my opinion. He steadily raised the prospects of the program until he reached a peak he couldn’t get over. His legacy is unfairly judged by what he didn’t do in his last few tournament appearances.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Nashmann »

I think CJS finally has things rolling. A few early missteps and comments had some folks p in arms. I have not always agreed with him or his decisions but I think he has the best interest for Vanderbilt and the players.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by VU1970 »

When Roy Skinner was coaching Vanderbilt, for much of the time there were no Black players, there was no three-point line, dunks were illegal, only one SEC team could go to the NCAA dance, and Richard Nixon played piano on the Opry.

But he took Vanderbilt to the Elite Eight, and until somebody else does that, he's the man.
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Nobody mentioned Bob Polk ...

Post by Versus75 »

... the former Georgia Tech assistant coach who brought the team from the era of second-rate sport (only played 15 games in 1947-48 season).

Of Polk's 13 seasons, 7 teams would likely have made the NCAAT under the current format. Roy Skinner teams would have likely been selected 8 or 9 times in his 16 seasons. It's important to note that Skinner did not inherit a bad team. He filled in for an ill Bob Polk during the 1958-59 season. Polk's next two teams went 14-9 and 19-5 (tied for second in the SEC) before he retired (for the time) because of a heart ailment and Skinner took over permanently.

From the VU Men's Basketball 2022-2023 Fact Book:

1947 - Perhaps the most important moment in the growth of Vanderbilt basketball, the Commodores are shellacked 98-29 by Adolph Rupp’s Kentucky Wildcats in the SEC Tournament. The defeat spurs athletic director Red Sanders to hire Bob Polk, Vanderbilt’s first basketball-only coach. Soon, scholarships would be awarded to basketball players and plans for a gym on campus were underway.



more from the Fact Book:

............ Record at Memorial Gym ...........
Head Coach ............ (Pct.) Seasons . Record

Bob Polk .............. (.865) ... 8 .... 96-15
Eddie Fogler........... (.818) ... 4 .... 54-12
Roy Skinner ........... (.815) .. 16 ... 181-41
Kevin Stallings ....... (.790) .. 16 ... 203-54
Jan van Breda Kolff ... (.789) ... 6 .... 75-20
C.M. Newton ........... (.711) ... 8 .... 91-37
Wayne Dobbs ........... (.659) ... 3 .... 29-15
Richard Schmidt ....... (.633) ... 2 .... 19-11
Bryce Drew ............ (.577) ... 3 .... 30-22
Jerry Stackhouse ...... (.519) ... 3 .... 27-25


I started at Vanderbilt during the Skinner era. Never met Bob Polk, but the record shows that he was among our best Men's Basketball coaches. Here is Polk's wikipedia bio:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Polk
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Go Vandy! »

VU1970 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pmWhen Roy Skinner was coaching Vanderbilt, for much of the time there were no Black players, there was no three-point line, dunks were illegal...
...& no shot clock. Yet on 12/22/70, VU beat Ole Miss 130-112. And now there are multiple games a season in which Power 5 teams can't score 25 points in a half.
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