Stackhouse

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MemorialMagic
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Stackhouse

Post by MemorialMagic »

Can someone help me understand the negativity that so many people exhibit toward Stackhouse?

And I don't mean the negative views of his coaching acumen. A guy loses games, it's totally fair game to question and critique strategy and tactics. I get that and have no problem with it. What I mean is more the lens that he is viewed through, it is much more negative than what you see with many coaches. When he loses, the default reaction is 'fire him'. When he wins, it's "that's great but I don't know how much Stack had to do with it". That started to change a bit during the run at the end of the year, but still you get a lot of qualification from people. People seem to think he doesn't like Vanderbilt, doesn't like the fans, doesn't like the press.

You listen to the Dore Report. They're really on his case. And every time something good happens it's always heavily qualified. Aria Gerson, our esteemed beat writer, is generally pretty negative about the basketball program. And I see it a lot on Twitter as well. He'll say something that if another coach said, it would be viewed as positive, but it's flipped when he says it.

I know it's not a truly fair comparison because he went to school here - but compare how Stack is viewed vs. how Clark Lea. Clark Lea gets the benefit of the doubt. He may be criticized for some horrendous coaching decisions (what the hell were we doing in the final 2 minutes of that South Carolina game 2 years ago). But personally, he's a golden boy. Can do no wrong.

So what is it? Personally, I like Stack a lot. He is absolutely no BS, no coach speak. He flat tells it like it is. Always levels with the fans and press about the team. He runs a tight ship. The kids all are getting good grades and keeping their nose clean, unlike so many other programs out there. He is all about developing the character of his players as much as their skills and talent. He is passionate and fights for his players and team. I loved it when he got tossed at the VCU game last year (was it VCU?). And despite everyone's thoughts and fears initially (including mine), he has been loyal to the school. He seems bought in to Vanderbilt and what it stands for and how it needs to operate. And then you throw in that I think he is a pretty good coach. His peers all seem to think so (voted best x's and o's coach by other SEC coaches).

Do I see negatives certainly, I think he his has a big ego that gets the better of him sometimes. I think the program markets itself and orients itself too much around him. And he is a complete idiot for engaging with anyone on social media (especially Twitter). He shouldn't go near it, and he should rise above.

Overall, though the positives far outweigh the negatives. But that's just me. Most fans don't seem to see it that way. Thoughts?


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Re: Stackhouse

Post by charlestonalum »

He is the best coach we have had since the last UNC grad here.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Saminator92 »

I think the OP is spot-on -- a lot of the time w/ him, it fits squarely w/ the movie line -- "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH." Personally, I love his general "edge."
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by AuricGoldfinger »

I think there are a variety of reasons for it, several of which you have already detailed. Some of them were obviously self-inflicted--examples include the aforementioned getting into it with fans on Twitter; the Joe Rexrode piece in The Athletic where he called out some fans' political leanings; the perception of having a cavalier attitude towards the end of the three-point streak. None of those will ever turn out well for any coach.

Some of it comes from on-the-court decisions: the stubborn refusal to call timeouts even when faced with an 18-0 run by the opponent, or lineup decisions that seemingly make no sense. And the loss of entire recruiting classes hasn't helped, either.

But I suspect the biggest factors are on-the-court results, like losing at home to Grambling or getting destroyed at Alabama. And, most prominently, not yet getting back to the NCAA tournament. Yes, it's a streak that has occurred during two coaches' regimes, but if Vandy doesn't make the tourney this year it will be the longest stretch without a tournament appearance for the program since the field was expanded to 64 teams in 1985.

It won't matter what fans think about Stack's other attributes if he can't get back to the dance next season.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by dore74 »

i find truth in both Memorial Magic's and Goldfinger's posts. The previous coach, who shall go unnamed, left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and set our mojo back dramatically. Stack, to me anyway, has a lot of Stallings in him--I think he can be even more successful than Stallings. Hopefully '23-'34 season will be a success (and start a run of successes) and we can focus on "what we need to do to keep him".
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Doreknox »

AuricGoldfinger wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:41 pm I think there are a variety of reasons for it, several of which you have already detailed. Some of them were obviously self-inflicted--examples include the aforementioned getting into it with fans on Twitter; the Joe Rexrode piece in The Athletic where he called out some fans' political leanings; the perception of having a cavalier attitude towards the end of the three-point streak. None of those will ever turn out well for any coach.

Some of it comes from on-the-court decisions: the stubborn refusal to call timeouts even when faced with an 18-0 run by the opponent, or lineup decisions that seemingly make no sense. And the loss of entire recruiting classes hasn't helped, either.

But I suspect the biggest factors are on-the-court results, like losing at home to Grambling or getting destroyed at Alabama. And, most prominently, not yet getting back to the NCAA tournament. Yes, it's a streak that has occurred during two coaches' regimes, but if Vandy doesn't make the tourney this year it will be the longest stretch without a tournament appearance for the program since the field was expanded to 64 teams in 1985.

It won't matter what fans think about Stack's other attributes if he can't get back to the dance next season.
This x1000. His record is 61-69. He's replaceable.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by VUaskew »

Doreknox wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:24 pm
AuricGoldfinger wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:41 pm I think there are a variety of reasons for it, several of which you have already detailed. Some of them were obviously self-inflicted--examples include the aforementioned getting into it with fans on Twitter; the Joe Rexrode piece in The Athletic where he called out some fans' political leanings; the perception of having a cavalier attitude towards the end of the three-point streak. None of those will ever turn out well for any coach.

Some of it comes from on-the-court decisions: the stubborn refusal to call timeouts even when faced with an 18-0 run by the opponent, or lineup decisions that seemingly make no sense. And the loss of entire recruiting classes hasn't helped, either.

But I suspect the biggest factors are on-the-court results, like losing at home to Grambling or getting destroyed at Alabama. And, most prominently, not yet getting back to the NCAA tournament. Yes, it's a streak that has occurred during two coaches' regimes, but if Vandy doesn't make the tourney this year it will be the longest stretch without a tournament appearance for the program since the field was expanded to 64 teams in 1985.

It won't matter what fans think about Stack's other attributes if he can't get back to the dance next season.
This x1000. His record is 61-69. He's replaceable.
Well. If you want objectivity introduced to the discussion, his record the last 2 years is 41-32 and 18-18 in SEC play, and 4-2 postseason. And, while we are wringing our hands over the Grambling loss, what about UK (twice), FL (twice), Auburn, and UT? By the rationale of some, we would have been better off beating Grambling and losing to the SEC schools mentioned. The upward trend indicates more of what he is capable of than his overall record. Everyone is replaceable for what that is worth.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by buffy »

Our problem, generally, is that we're a-holes. We want to win right the heck now. Turns out, it's really hard. Our coach didn't have the luxury of learning college coaching as an assistant. He jumped in the deep end. It's a hell of a learning curve for a new head coach. It's even crazier if you throw COVID, NIL and the portal into the mix. His mouth sometimes gets him in hot water. But that two-edged sword also gives us some very honest dialogue in a world of coach-speak. The bottom line: We got a good coach. We probably won't be able to keep him for long. Be thankful for the adventure ahead.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Foreverhopeful »

I am a big Stackhouse supporter and we are lucky to have him. The issues with our beat writer have to do with the fact that she started out as an idiot and is about 20 years old. She knows her baseball but is just really ramping up on the other sports. She asked Stack stupid questions and he wasn't having it. He is good with the players and the families. He supports the team. My interactions with him on Twitter (he has reached out to me) have been extremely positive. He does have an ego (and I think we want that) and doesn't love criticism, especially when it comes because people don't really know what is going on.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by commadore »

buffy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:59 pm Our problem, generally, is that we're a-holes. We want to win right the heck now. Turns out, it's really hard. Our coach didn't have the luxury of learning college coaching as an assistant. He jumped in the deep end. It's a hell of a learning curve for a new head coach. It's even crazier if you throw COVID, NIL and the portal into the mix. His mouth sometimes gets him in hot water. But that two-edged sword also gives us some very honest dialogue in a world of coach-speak. The bottom line: We got a good coach. We probably won't be able to keep him for long. Be thankful for the adventure ahead.
It also doesn't help when the prior "coach" guts the program.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by LawoftheWest »

I think that Stack is an outstanding coach. Note, I did not say the best in college basketball.

Everyone has faults and weaknesses. Posters sometimes want to point out Stack's. Is there any poster on this board who will claim they are perfect, without fault? I hope no one has that fantasy. Over time I have learned my many faults and weaknesses, often the hard way.

When Stack was hired our cupboard was bare, close to empty. He had a deep hole to dig out of. As Buffy pointed out, Stack did not have experience coaching at the college level. There have been coaches at several other schools (including SEC) who came from the NBA and failed. To Stack's credit he stuck with it. It takes quite some time to develop relationships with high school coaches, who are sometimes instrumental in guiding their players to specific colleges. Also, coaches start recruiting good players when the players are sophomores or even freshmen (or earlier). Stack has been competing against other colleges where their coaches have established those relationships for years. Those coaches from competing colleges not only sell their program, many of them also point out the negatives of other schools and coaches, like the inexperience of Stack at the college level.

When a coach is talking to a high school player the coach, among other sales pitches, has to talk about his coaching record and how he develops players. Stack did not have that track record. During his tenure at Vandy, his recruiting has improved each year as he has established contacts with high school coaches and shown his ability to develop players. I think that Lawrence entering the portal, trying out for the NBA, then returning to Vandy will enhance the credibility of Stack.

When Vandy hired Stack without college coaching experience the AD took a risk that Stack would not work out. The AD could have tried to hire a successful mid-major coach. We all know that approach is also a crap shoot, given Stack's predecessor as an example. A top coach from a major college was out of the question as a hire.

I am a Stack fan, with all of his faults, and hope he stays at Vandy for a long time. He is a great representative of our school. He is a heads up man. One final note is that some complain about his ego. Hello. Try Coach K, Self at Kansas, SEC coaches at KY, Arky, Auburn and Bama as examples of ego.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by mathguy »

MemorialMagic wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:46 pm Can someone help me understand the negativity that so many people exhibit toward Stackhouse?

So what is it? Personally, I like Stack a lot. He is absolutely no BS, no coach speak. He flat tells it like it is. Always levels with the fans and press about the team. He runs a tight ship. The kids all are getting good grades and keeping their nose clean, unlike so many other programs out there. He is all about developing the character of his players as much as their skills and talent. He is passionate and fights for his players and team. I loved it when he got tossed at the VCU game last year (was it VCU?). And despite everyone's thoughts and fears initially (including mine), he has been loyal to the school. He seems bought in to Vanderbilt and what it stands for and how it needs to operate. And then you throw in that I think he is a pretty good coach. His peers all seem to think so (voted best x's and o's coach by other SEC coaches).

Do I see negatives certainly, I think he his has a big ego that gets the better of him sometimes. I think the program markets itself and orients itself too much around him. And he is a complete idiot for engaging with anyone on social media (especially Twitter). He shouldn't go near it, and he should rise above.
OK. You hinted at some things ang Auric summed up most of the rest, but this is what I see.

I say this as someone who supports Stack ... but he can come off as crazy. Flat out cuckoo for cocoa puffs nuts.

I watched the postgame interview in the SEC Tourney last year where he chastised the announcers, saying they "should pick us some time". That was awesome ... but Stack wasn't being sarcastic, or making a point, or quipping a clever sound bite. He was legitimately angry at them for doubting his team and followed the quote by ripping off the headset and storming off. He's twitter raged. He's yelled and screamed and pouted.

Now, when he does it, he does it defending his players and defending the team and defending the program. I'm not trying to take cheap shots at him.

But what you call "giving no BS" and "passionately fighting for his players and team" ... well, through a different lens he seems unhinged and unable to control his temper and behavior.

I admit, I just cast Stack in the worst possible light to make my point, and that's unfair.

But at the end of the day I support Stack for two main reasons:

1) Every year of his tenure we've been better than the year before, and are better at the end of the season than the beginning.
2) His is clearly very passionate about the team, his players, and the program.

On the flip side ... yeah, I wish he was able to do that while keeping some of his temper in check. And I can understand some people responding to some of his outbursts by just flat out not liking the guy. Not where I stand ... but I can see it.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by LawoftheWest »

mathguy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:54 pm
MemorialMagic wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:46 pm

On the flip side ... yeah, I wish he was able to do that while keeping some of his temper in check. And I can understand some people responding to some of his outbursts by just flat out not liking the guy. Not where I stand ... but I can see it.

I don't mean to start an argument with you. I do want to point out that there have been many college basketball (as well as football) coaches with tempers and/or bad language. The king of the hill is probably Bobby Knight. Coach K was also known for his temper and sarcasm. Jim Calhoun at UConn was a foul potty mouth extraodinaire. Kevin Stallings had his (many) moments of anger, sarcasm and foul language. Bruce Pearl is not a candidate for sainthood. And so on, with many more.

College coaching is a stressful job. Different coaches handle the pressure different ways, which they receive from media, fans, alums, board members, social media and boards like this one. Do I like temper tantrums and foul language? No. But is part of human nature.

I watched the post game interview with the Boston Celtics coach after their seventh game loss. He is a young, rookie head coach. His responses to questions were curt, even rude. He was defensive after that loss on their home court.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by bornadore57 »

I want nothing but success for anyone associated with Vanderbilt. I am a supporter of Jerry Stackhouse and see lots to like about him. I do think the transition to coaching and college has presented more of a learning curve than anticipated, but learning is occurring. This transition and learning, I believe, has happened in the craziest four years possible (Covid, NIL, transfer portal, diversity-over-sensitivity, Malcolm Turner, etc.). Yes, I could discuss some aspects of the last four years in a negative light, but I like where we are and what I see for the season ahead. All the best Coach Stackhouse. I hope your tenure at Vanderbilt is long and is something we can all be proud of, especially you.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by mathguy »

LawoftheWest wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:53 pm
mathguy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:54 pm
MemorialMagic wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:46 pm

On the flip side ... yeah, I wish he was able to do that while keeping some of his temper in check. And I can understand some people responding to some of his outbursts by just flat out not liking the guy. Not where I stand ... but I can see it.

I don't mean to start an argument with you. I do want to point out that there have been many college basketball (as well as football) coaches with tempers and/or bad language. The king of the hill is probably Bobby Knight. Coach K was also known for his temper and sarcasm. Jim Calhoun at UConn was a foul potty mouth extraodinaire. Kevin Stallings had his (many) moments of anger, sarcasm and foul language. Bruce Pearl is not a candidate for sainthood. And so on, with many more.

College coaching is a stressful job. Different coaches handle the pressure different ways, which they receive from media, fans, alums, board members, social media and boards like this one. Do I like temper tantrums and foul language? No. But is part of human nature.

I watched the post game interview with the Boston Celtics coach after their seventh game loss. He is a young, rookie head coach. His responses to questions were curt, even rude. He was defensive after that loss on their home court.
I'm not arguing with you at all. And like I said, despite it all I like Stack and realize that his outbursts are coming from a good place (which I don't think could always be said of Bobby Knight).

But the OP asked why people give Stack a hard time or dismiss him quickly when things go bad and, fair or not, I think Stack's temper has something to do with it. It's easier to dismiss someone when they don't seem like they are in control of themselves.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by bernstml19 »

commadore wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:47 pm
buffy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:59 pm Our problem, generally, is that we're a-holes. We want to win right the heck now. Turns out, it's really hard. Our coach didn't have the luxury of learning college coaching as an assistant. He jumped in the deep end. It's a hell of a learning curve for a new head coach. It's even crazier if you throw COVID, NIL and the portal into the mix. His mouth sometimes gets him in hot water. But that two-edged sword also gives us some very honest dialogue in a world of coach-speak. The bottom line: We got a good coach. We probably won't be able to keep him for long. Be thankful for the adventure ahead.
It also doesn't help when the prior "coach" guts the program.
Yes I have no idea how it happened but it’s like the last guy dropped an absolute deuce on our basketball team. Imagine what it would have looked like if stack had taken over for a coach who had left for greener pastures because he was hired away after a good season.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Jason94 »

MemorialMagic wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:46 pm Can someone help me understand the negativity that so many people exhibit toward Stackhouse?

And I don't mean the negative views of his coaching acumen. A guy loses games, it's totally fair game to question and critique strategy and tactics. I get that and have no problem with it. What I mean is more the lens that he is viewed through, it is much more negative than what you see with many coaches. When he loses, the default reaction is 'fire him'. When he wins, it's "that's great but I don't know how much Stack had to do with it". That started to change a bit during the run at the end of the year, but still you get a lot of qualification from people. People seem to think he doesn't like Vanderbilt, doesn't like the fans, doesn't like the press.

You listen to the Dore Report. They're really on his case. And every time something good happens it's always heavily qualified. Aria Gerson, our esteemed beat writer, is generally pretty negative about the basketball program. And I see it a lot on Twitter as well. He'll say something that if another coach said, it would be viewed as positive, but it's flipped when he says it.

I know it's not a truly fair comparison because he went to school here - but compare how Stack is viewed vs. how Clark Lea. Clark Lea gets the benefit of the doubt. He may be criticized for some horrendous coaching decisions (what the hell were we doing in the final 2 minutes of that South Carolina game 2 years ago). But personally, he's a golden boy. Can do no wrong.

So what is it? Personally, I like Stack a lot. He is absolutely no BS, no coach speak. He flat tells it like it is. Always levels with the fans and press about the team. He runs a tight ship. The kids all are getting good grades and keeping their nose clean, unlike so many other programs out there. He is all about developing the character of his players as much as their skills and talent. He is passionate and fights for his players and team. I loved it when he got tossed at the VCU game last year (was it VCU?). And despite everyone's thoughts and fears initially (including mine), he has been loyal to the school. He seems bought in to Vanderbilt and what it stands for and how it needs to operate. And then you throw in that I think he is a pretty good coach. His peers all seem to think so (voted best x's and o's coach by other SEC coaches).

Do I see negatives certainly, I think he his has a big ego that gets the better of him sometimes. I think the program markets itself and orients itself too much around him. And he is a complete idiot for engaging with anyone on social media (especially Twitter). He shouldn't go near it, and he should rise above.

Overall, though the positives far outweigh the negatives. But that's just me. Most fans don't seem to see it that way. Thoughts?
There are a lot of BS criticisms of CJS that get mixed into legitimate criticisms of his roster management which has muddied the argument a bit. I think that CJS has actually done a great deal to address a lot of his weaknesses, and only has to actually make the tournament, which should be a given with the talent he finally has collected. I expect he will do so this year and hopefully stay on long enough to have an actual run in the tournament - we shall see.

I could care less about CJS' personality, social media profile, etc. Any criticism I have of him has completely to do with the results on the court. His roster management has been improving greatly, but it started out pretty disastrous. Yes, CBD left him a mess, but he also recruited a bunch of guys who simply weren't very good. Jankovich, Odisupe, Harvey, DeZonie, Dorsey, Daniels are all players who are generally nowhere near SEC caliber. One could argue that Thomas didn't really belong in the SEC and the more he played the worse his numbers got. Fortunately, he has addressed this and utilized the Portal to his advantage, correcting a number of misses from the past few years.

The other criticism is how he managed the lineups last season. There was a lot of sugar coating of what he was doing, but starting Thomas, Lawrence, Smith, Stute and QMB for multiple games in a row made no sense then, and makes even less sense now. I get sometimes you need to send a message, but it took 1 game for Lawrence to get it. Why did it take 5 or 6 games to decide that we needed to start Manjon and Robbins? I also don't understand why Robbins played so little in Nov, Dec and Jan when he was healthy. The bright side of it is that we won't miss Robbins as much as we could have, because he didn't even play half of the available minutes at Center last season. CJS had to replace more minutes of QMB than he did of Robbins.

While I don't care about the other stuff as long as someone is effective, I doesn't make any sense to intentionally antagonize fans IMO. It is pretty universal that if you want a bit more leeway, being an a-hole isn't going to help. But I didn't care that CKS was a jerk, so why should I care if CJS is one? In the end they are very similar, which is why I like them both, just that CKS had the benefit of coaching at college for several years before taking the job. CJS probably relates better to today's players, and his pedigree as a NBA players, All-Star, etc brings a cache that CKS didn't have.

As long as CJS doesn't do the craziness he did last season with the lineups in November and December I'd be surprised if we didn't make the tournament. CJS is a legitimately very good bench coach and player developer and he now has the talent and depth to make some real noise. In March of next season we should be wondering how high of a single digit seed we will be getting, not playing the bubble game.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Foreverhopeful »

I've always been a Bobby Knight fan (note profile picture). Of course, he mainly was before this day and age of social media. If you were around him or connected with IU in any way, you knew that he did SO much good for so many families and people- all behind the scenes. Yes, he was a head case in many ways, but the real story is a bit different.
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by charlestonalum »

OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings

Anyone else have an opinion?
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Re: Stackhouse

Post by Obvious »

charlestonalum wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:05 pm OK
I'll go first in ranking our top 5 coaches:
1. Skinner
2. Fogler
3. Stackhouse
4. Newton
5. Stallings

Anyone else have an opinion?
I can’t rank them because I haven’t seen all of those coaches. But stallings still has to be ahead of Stack as of right now. I’m a big Stackhouse supporter but Stallings had us in the tournament consistently in the latter half of his tenure. He made a couple sweet 16s (one of which should’ve been an elite 8). He won a sec tournament against the unbeatable Anthony Davis wildcats.His recruiting improved to attracting big time talent and had several players drafted and play in the NBA. We were a top 25 teams for multiple seasons under Stallings. He was always respected by his peers as being one of the better coaches in the conference.
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