Tyrin Lawrence

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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by docdore »

geeznotagain wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:25 am
Go Vandy! wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:45 am
So, since is going to be the situation every year, how many more years would you give Stack to get to the NCAAs? I'm seriously asking. And "almost" making it doesn't count IMO (I may be in the minority on that).
Seems to me that NIL and the portal make it much more difficult to evaluate a coach's performance. True, he has some control over roster retention (team chemistry, properly allocating playing time), but I assume he has ZERO control over NIL If he gets outbid for a player, is he accountable for that? The Syracuse coach (whose name I can't spell) accused Miami (and others) of "buying a team" this year. Does anyone doubt that is true? If you're coaching with a pauper's purse, what ya gonna do? NOTE: I'm assuming the coach has zero control over the amount of the NIL $ available and how those $ are used. That may not be true. Wish I knew.
hypothetically.....if a coach these days were wealthy, could he/she donate to an institution's nil fund and specify his/her team's players as the recipients? could a coach, if so inclined, pay their players to play for them?


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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Ndorefin »

No!
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Ndorefin »

mathguy wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 9:20 pm
commadore wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 9:46 pm
OldDude wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:07 pm

If he comes back and only averages 30 per game, all is forgiven. I would love to see him back regardless , he seemed not only a good player but a good person.
I am a loyalist. I committed to Vanderbilt in 1964 when I was 8 years old. It is my team. Was my dream to go there and I felt honored to represent the black and gold, if just as a student screaming his fool head off on the first or second row. Anyone who is not for us, is against us. Anyone who was for us, but changes, is a Benedict Arnold in my mind. Call me old fashioned, call me a fool, and I am sure some of you will, but that is how I feel. Black and gold blood.
Personally, I think you are being harsh. Can you imagine what the NBA would look like if every player was an unrestricted free agent at the end of every year, and there was no salary cap? That's basically where the NCAA is now.

I can't fault a guy for taking a long look at what his options are. And if he takes a long look and then decides to come back to us after all ... hey, that's us winning.

I was mad when Al Horford left the Celtics to go to the Sixers. I was glad when he rejoined the Celtics. Just the way of the world. The NCAA shouldn't be like that. It didn't used to be like that. It is like that today. Sigh.
You are correct in that players are free agents every year….players were always able to transfer at will, but had to sit a year. Now, a player can transfer once without sitting a year. If the player transfers again, he has to sit a year (unless he has graduated). The difference now is that a player gets one transfer without sitting, which I don’t have a problem with, but the NIL is what has really changed the game….it’s made it dirtier than ever!
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Go Vandy! »

For clarification, I hope Stack is here a decade from now. I hope he has made 7,8 NCAAT appearances, and a couple Sweet 16s. Depending on how close we are to the tourney next spring MIGHT buy him another year. But if he has 0 invites thru 6 (possibly 5), i would be ready to move on. And i can't keep from wondering why his name has been attached to so many NBA vacancies. Maybe he has no interest, but maybe-
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Foreverhopeful »

If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by AuricGoldfinger »

Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:58 pm If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
Tyrin or Stack?
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Foreverhopeful »

Coach- I want to keep the one we have.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Jason94 »

Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:58 pm If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Foreverhopeful »

Jason94 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:40 pm
Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:58 pm If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
I think a lot of pieces have to fall into place. I think we should have been selected this year!
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by alathIN »

Jason94 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:40 pm
Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:58 pm If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
I think that we will need to build and retain a legit SEC roster with much less NIL money than any other SEC team. I'm not sure even extreme luck will suffice for that.

We all rail against the players who take the higher pay, but how many of us have willingly worked for lower pay/benefits than we could get elsewhere?

I also fail to see how Stackhouse vs any other coach can change these dynamics.

PS - I know not all of our transfers were NIL related. Some had to do with grad school options or lower caliber players looking for more playing time. But I do think NIL will be the main obstacle to finding and retaining starter quality players.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Jason94 »

alathIN wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:52 am
Jason94 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:40 pm
Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:58 pm If you think there is someone better out there for us…..good luck with that!
Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
I think that we will need to build and retain a legit SEC roster with much less NIL money than any other SEC team. I'm not sure even extreme luck will suffice for that.

We all rail against the players who take the higher pay, but how many of us have willingly worked for lower pay/benefits than we could get elsewhere?

I also fail to see how Stackhouse vs any other coach can change these dynamics.

PS - I know not all of our transfers were NIL related. Some had to do with grad school options or lower caliber players looking for more playing time. But I do think NIL will be the main obstacle to finding and retaining starter quality players.
I guess I wonder if we have that much less NIL available than say, Iowa State, USC, Or Northwestern? Much less teams like FAU, North Texas or San Diego St. We are a school that has a $10 Billion dollar endowment. If you made 1% off of that endowment that would equal $100 million per year. 1% of that would be $1 million which would probably be a big boost to our NIL fund. Is nobody thinking of things like this?

I understand that it can be a disadvantage, but I fail to see how it is such a disadvantage as to have us essentially give up on going to the tournament. Especially as we were close this year despite some pretty poor roster decisions during the first 2.5 months of the season. It doesn't take a whole lot of luck to play Robbins more than 11 minutes and Lawrence more than 12 minutes against Southern Miss. It was also not luck that we played Trey Thomas, a player who went to the portal and transferred to Bowling Green massive amounts of minutes and gave him 17 starts. It also doesn't take luck to know that the committee places a ton of value on games played in November and December and will ignore how hot a team is coming into the tournament. It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.

I don't know if anybody on this board read Moneyball or saw the movie. But at this stage of the portal and NIL, I find it quite difficult to believe that every coach understands where value exists, and that it simply is a given that the teams with the most NIL will win the tournament every season. UK flamed out in the 2nd round and there probably aren't 5 programs with more NIL set aside for basketball.

Player development and coaching are fantastic things to have, but in my mind, nowhere near sufficient to be successful in today's game. There was theoretically almost 5,000 D1 scholarship athletes in basketball last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDMHwqIn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unGSY5l76YQ

These scenes from Moneyball is a pretty good analogy to where we are in college basketball. There are a ton of players out there who aren't the Hunter Dickenson types that will command a huge amount of NIL but who are guys who absolutely can play in the SEC. The coaching staff absolutely has to lean into the portal and if they do not they are not doing everything they can to win in this environment. I just don't think we should be settling for mediocre players, not focusing our recruiting efforts on the HS level.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Doreknox »

Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.
For sure, money talks in transfer decisions, but a lot of these former players who left were not SEC caliber guys nor did they seem committed to getting a VU education. I think Stack can help himself by getting guys who are better fits for VU. OMB was certainly that type of guy and I still have questions as to why he left. We've lost nearly every recruit Stack has brought in, which is atrocious - NIL or not. Whatever the reasons, Stack is failing at recruiting and retention.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Jason94 »

Doreknox wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:00 am
Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.
For sure, money talks in transfer decisions, but a lot of these former players who left were not SEC caliber guys nor did they seem committed to getting a VU education. I think Stack can help himself by getting guys who are better fits for VU. OMB was certainly that type of guy and I still have questions as to why he left. We've lost nearly every recruit Stack has brought in, which is atrocious - NIL or not. Whatever the reasons, Stack is failing at recruiting and retention.
I'm not quite as concerned about retention so much as the fact that outside of two players, the guys we lost (Stute, Thomas, Dia, Shelby, QMB) had production levels that are not particularly difficult to replace. Since we know that CJS does an excellent job of developing players, I would conclude that these players just weren't that talented overall, but that just implies that we need to do a better job of getting more talented players. Wright leaving makes sense and he already graduated. QMB leaving is not great but he is a role player. Lawrence is the only player who we should not be losing, but the others (Stute, Thomas, Dia and Shelby) were misses by the staff, much like the entire freshman class from the previous season. The number of transfers are concerning, but not for the reason that one might think. Only two of the players who left were potentially going to be impact players, and one of them (Wright) we thought to be gone just based upon his having graduated and scholarship numbers. The issue is how many of them we won't miss despite their having played a lot of minutes and/or being thought of very highly coming in.

If NIL meant as much as we are telling ourselves, then the following schools would have certainly made the tournament - Ohio State, Michigan, Florida, Villanova, UNC, Oregon, and Oklahoma. Clearly there are other factors that are much more important than NIL money, and I would guess that not every player is motivated solely or primarily by NIL money.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by commadore »

Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
alathIN wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:52 am
Jason94 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:40 pm

Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
I think that we will need to build and retain a legit SEC roster with much less NIL money than any other SEC team. I'm not sure even extreme luck will suffice for that.

We all rail against the players who take the higher pay, but how many of us have willingly worked for lower pay/benefits than we could get elsewhere?

I also fail to see how Stackhouse vs any other coach can change these dynamics.

PS - I know not all of our transfers were NIL related. Some had to do with grad school options or lower caliber players looking for more playing time. But I do think NIL will be the main obstacle to finding and retaining starter quality players.
I guess I wonder if we have that much less NIL available than say, Iowa State, USC, Or Northwestern? Much less teams like FAU, North Texas or San Diego St. We are a school that has a $10 Billion dollar endowment. If you made 1% off of that endowment that would equal $100 million per year. 1% of that would be $1 million which would probably be a big boost to our NIL fund. Is nobody thinking of things like this?

I understand that it can be a disadvantage, but I fail to see how it is such a disadvantage as to have us essentially give up on going to the tournament. Especially as we were close this year despite some pretty poor roster decisions during the first 2.5 months of the season. It doesn't take a whole lot of luck to play Robbins more than 11 minutes and Lawrence more than 12 minutes against Southern Miss. It was also not luck that we played Trey Thomas, a player who went to the portal and transferred to Bowling Green massive amounts of minutes and gave him 17 starts. It also doesn't take luck to know that the committee places a ton of value on games played in November and December and will ignore how hot a team is coming into the tournament. It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.

I don't know if anybody on this board read Moneyball or saw the movie. But at this stage of the portal and NIL, I find it quite difficult to believe that every coach understands where value exists, and that it simply is a given that the teams with the most NIL will win the tournament every season. UK flamed out in the 2nd round and there probably aren't 5 programs with more NIL set aside for basketball.

Player development and coaching are fantastic things to have, but in my mind, nowhere near sufficient to be successful in today's game. There was theoretically almost 5,000 D1 scholarship athletes in basketball last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDMHwqIn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unGSY5l76YQ

These scenes from Moneyball is a pretty good analogy to where we are in college basketball. There are a ton of players out there who aren't the Hunter Dickenson types that will command a huge amount of NIL but who are guys who absolutely can play in the SEC. The coaching staff absolutely has to lean into the portal and if they do not they are not doing everything they can to win in this environment. I just don't think we should be settling for mediocre players, not focusing our recruiting efforts on the HS level.
They could make 20% on that endowment and not a penny would or could go into the NIL. That money has to come from outsiders who want name, image, likeness from the players.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by MrMemorial »

Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
alathIN wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:52 am
Jason94 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:40 pm

Do you think that making the NCAA tournament is a pipe dream, and that only with extreme luck we can get there?
I think that we will need to build and retain a legit SEC roster with much less NIL money than any other SEC team. I'm not sure even extreme luck will suffice for that.

We all rail against the players who take the higher pay, but how many of us have willingly worked for lower pay/benefits than we could get elsewhere?

I also fail to see how Stackhouse vs any other coach can change these dynamics.

PS - I know not all of our transfers were NIL related. Some had to do with grad school options or lower caliber players looking for more playing time. But I do think NIL will be the main obstacle to finding and retaining starter quality players.
I guess I wonder if we have that much less NIL available than say, Iowa State, USC, Or Northwestern? Much less teams like FAU, North Texas or San Diego St. We are a school that has a $10 Billion dollar endowment. If you made 1% off of that endowment that would equal $100 million per year. 1% of that would be $1 million which would probably be a big boost to our NIL fund. Is nobody thinking of things like this?

I understand that it can be a disadvantage, but I fail to see how it is such a disadvantage as to have us essentially give up on going to the tournament. Especially as we were close this year despite some pretty poor roster decisions during the first 2.5 months of the season. It doesn't take a whole lot of luck to play Robbins more than 11 minutes and Lawrence more than 12 minutes against Southern Miss. It was also not luck that we played Trey Thomas, a player who went to the portal and transferred to Bowling Green massive amounts of minutes and gave him 17 starts. It also doesn't take luck to know that the committee places a ton of value on games played in November and December and will ignore how hot a team is coming into the tournament. It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.

I don't know if anybody on this board read Moneyball or saw the movie. But at this stage of the portal and NIL, I find it quite difficult to believe that every coach understands where value exists, and that it simply is a given that the teams with the most NIL will win the tournament every season. UK flamed out in the 2nd round and there probably aren't 5 programs with more NIL set aside for basketball.

Player development and coaching are fantastic things to have, but in my mind, nowhere near sufficient to be successful in today's game. There was theoretically almost 5,000 D1 scholarship athletes in basketball last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDMHwqIn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unGSY5l76YQ

These scenes from Moneyball is a pretty good analogy to where we are in college basketball. There are a ton of players out there who aren't the Hunter Dickenson types that will command a huge amount of NIL but who are guys who absolutely can play in the SEC. The coaching staff absolutely has to lean into the portal and if they do not they are not doing everything they can to win in this environment. I just don't think we should be settling for mediocre players, not focusing our recruiting efforts on the HS level.
Your first clip didn't work. I'm going to guess it was "there's rich teams and then there's poor teams and then there's 50 feet of crap...etc..."
Good film. I hardly ever buy a DVD but I own that one. It's interesting that the A's got off to a horrible start that season and turned it around in a big way, caught fire later in the season? Is that not what happened to VU in hoops last season?
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Troubadore »

One might think that if a major D1 college player is good enough to make the NBA, he'd focus on his relationship with the school, teammates, classmates, learning a little bit in a course or two, and maximizing his skills under a solid coach, knowing he's going to cash in shortly anyway. No need to diss your school to chase an extra $10K for a year or two, as the Michigan center indicated, if you know there's millions waiting for you if you just focus on maximizing the opportunities available as a result of your current setting... not to mention the investment and support that your current school, coach, admin, teammates, fans, and fellow students have made in you.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by vandy05 »

The school can't use its endowment to pay NIL money to players so that idea is out. Secondly, having great NIL options doesn't mean you are going to be great at evaluating who should receive that NIL money. So there are legitimate reasons well-moneyed programs won't always make the tournament.

My personal take is that our coach is likely a top level coach/player developer. But we have structural issues that will continually hinder us from keeping our roster. Other schools will see how well someone has developed and come take him with a better financial offer.

But I also do not believe that the NCAAT should be a pipe dream for us. This year we lost out because of some early season losses. In hindsight, I think that was because Coach was still getting the roster together after the prior year's turnover. We may have to accept that each year. But in some years (maybe even many years) the pieces could fall into place for us to make the tourney.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by Jason94 »

MrMemorial wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:59 am
Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
alathIN wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:52 am

I think that we will need to build and retain a legit SEC roster with much less NIL money than any other SEC team. I'm not sure even extreme luck will suffice for that.

We all rail against the players who take the higher pay, but how many of us have willingly worked for lower pay/benefits than we could get elsewhere?

I also fail to see how Stackhouse vs any other coach can change these dynamics.

PS - I know not all of our transfers were NIL related. Some had to do with grad school options or lower caliber players looking for more playing time. But I do think NIL will be the main obstacle to finding and retaining starter quality players.
I guess I wonder if we have that much less NIL available than say, Iowa State, USC, Or Northwestern? Much less teams like FAU, North Texas or San Diego St. We are a school that has a $10 Billion dollar endowment. If you made 1% off of that endowment that would equal $100 million per year. 1% of that would be $1 million which would probably be a big boost to our NIL fund. Is nobody thinking of things like this?

I understand that it can be a disadvantage, but I fail to see how it is such a disadvantage as to have us essentially give up on going to the tournament. Especially as we were close this year despite some pretty poor roster decisions during the first 2.5 months of the season. It doesn't take a whole lot of luck to play Robbins more than 11 minutes and Lawrence more than 12 minutes against Southern Miss. It was also not luck that we played Trey Thomas, a player who went to the portal and transferred to Bowling Green massive amounts of minutes and gave him 17 starts. It also doesn't take luck to know that the committee places a ton of value on games played in November and December and will ignore how hot a team is coming into the tournament. It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.

I don't know if anybody on this board read Moneyball or saw the movie. But at this stage of the portal and NIL, I find it quite difficult to believe that every coach understands where value exists, and that it simply is a given that the teams with the most NIL will win the tournament every season. UK flamed out in the 2nd round and there probably aren't 5 programs with more NIL set aside for basketball.

Player development and coaching are fantastic things to have, but in my mind, nowhere near sufficient to be successful in today's game. There was theoretically almost 5,000 D1 scholarship athletes in basketball last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDMHwqIn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unGSY5l76YQ

These scenes from Moneyball is a pretty good analogy to where we are in college basketball. There are a ton of players out there who aren't the Hunter Dickenson types that will command a huge amount of NIL but who are guys who absolutely can play in the SEC. The coaching staff absolutely has to lean into the portal and if they do not they are not doing everything they can to win in this environment. I just don't think we should be settling for mediocre players, not focusing our recruiting efforts on the HS level.
Your first clip didn't work. I'm going to guess it was "there's rich teams and then there's poor teams and then there's 50 feet of crap...etc..."
Good film. I hardly ever buy a DVD but I own that one. It's interesting that the A's got off to a horrible start that season and turned it around in a big way, caught fire later in the season? Is that not what happened to VU in hoops last season?
Sorry about that link - here it is corrected:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDMHwqIn3s

The similarities between the two are very similar, including the frustration Beane had with the manager who was not playing the right players, and when the right players were put into the lineup the winning started - good catch. But the main point was that this all occurred with an organization that was underfunded and had to play look for value in less traditional areas. We can't bemoan the difference in NIL funding and give up because of it - just by approaching things a bit differently will likely yield better results. If we play the game the way the schools with big NIL funds do, we will lose. But there is a huge opportunity to immediately improve our roster if we are open to doing things differently.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by OldDude »

commadore wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:39 am



They could make 20% on that endowment and not a penny would or could go into the NIL. That money has to come from outsiders who want name, image, likeness from the players.
[/quote]

Think you are right about the school directly funding NIL (though I think personally that is idiotic given the mere existence of NIL). VU may have to start thinking less like VU and more like Big State U. It would be so easy to go to the big money donors and suggest that instead of giving Xhundred thousand toward the endowment this year , they give a portion of that amount to the endowment and remainder to the collective. Using Jason's analogy of coming up with $1 million, I would argue that is money well spent /invested as a successful program would generate that much in increased revenues from ticket sales, concessions and paraphenalia royalties.
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Re: Tyrin Lawrence

Post by charlestonalum »

Doreknox wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:00 am
Jason94 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:22 am
It just doesn't require a huge amount of luck to get better players than Trey Thomas, QMB, Myles Stute or Emmanuel Ansong.
For sure, money talks in transfer decisions, but a lot of these former players who left were not SEC caliber guys nor did they seem committed to getting a VU education. I think Stack can help himself by getting guys who are better fits for VU. OMB was certainly that type of guy and I still have questions as to why he left. We've lost nearly every recruit Stack has brought in, which is atrocious - NIL or not. Whatever the reasons, Stack is failing at recruiting and retention.
Maybe I am simple minded, but I think he went to be with Ed Conroy - I have lots of Citadel friends and will try to find out when I can. It won't be a secret. We know he did not go for the money or education so playing time under his former coach seems like the answer.

The local paper has this to say:

Conroy, a former assistant coach at Vanderbilt, and Millora-Brown spent the 2021-22 season together with the Commodores.

“Having that prior relationship with coach Conroy was huge for me when I was making my decision on where to transfer,” Millora-Brown said. “Ultimately, it was my trust in coach Conroy and his vision for my role next season is what made me feel like The Citadel was the right place for me.”

Conroy is convinced that Millora-Brown and Hill will be a difference maker for the Bulldogs next season.

“I’ve been blessed to coach some great players and people in my 30-plus years,” Conroy said. “Quentin is special. He’s the total package as a student, as an athlete and as a community guy. He’s a phenomenal teammate and he’ll be a huge for us from a leadership standpoint.

“I can’t think of a better guy to come in here and help us build our program and our culture and get us to where we want to be.”

Millora-Brown joins the Bulldogs after starting 65 games in his career at Vanderbilt.

The 6-10 Millora-Brown made 27 starts last season, averaging 3.5 points and 4.3 rebounds per game. He also ranked second on the team in blocks (22). He had a career-best five blocks in an SEC Tournament victory over LSU.

In the first round NIT victory over Yale, he finished with seven points and 13 rebounds.

“Quentin will be the anchor of our defense,” Conroy said. “His positioning and his communication are great.”

Millora-Brown began his college career at Rice where he started 28 games, averaging 7.2 points and 5.9 rebounds per game for the Owls.

“The area where I see his game taking off is on the offensive end,” Conroy said. “He’s always been a very unselfish player, a pass first kind of guy, but his range has improved each year and I think he’s ready to score the ball for us.”
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