Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

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Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by BrentVU »

My first and most basic reaction to the 21-20 loss was this: This was a very different-looking team in Game Seven than the Vanderbilt team that played the first six games. That OLD team probably deserved to be a 21-point underdog to South Carolina, but the team that got off the bus Saturday afternoon in Columbia did not. It had the look of a team that could go eye-to-eye with South Carolina, on the road. And it did.

With Ken Seals out injured and Mike Wright getting his first start, we finally saw what Wright was capable of after a week of getting all the reps with the first team, and a gameplan engineered around his skill set. And it was impressive. He demonstrated his ability to extend plays, scramble for first downs, and throw on the run, at all of which he far exceeds Seals. And the coaches did him a favor by letting him throw downfield early. He threw a pair of 50-plus yard pass plays (Vandy's first two 50-plus offensive plays of the season). He went 7-of-11 for 160 yards in the first half, fantastic numbers for a guy who is supposed to be Vandy's "running QB". He and Will Sheppard, who looked like All-Americans in the spring game, resurrected that magic on a play that put Vandy up 17-14 and silenced the Gamecock crowd. And making his first start, Wright and the offense played an almost penalty-free game.

Meanwhile Jesse Minter's defense, after giving up an 82-yard cheapie, settled down and shut out USC-East for 49 minutes. The defensive line played its best game yet, stopping lots of penetration. For the first time all season, I thought the D-line won the battle in the trenches. The D forced FOUR turnovers (should have been five)-- and yes, most of them were truly forced. Best of all, Minter's blitz packages were creating pressure on Luke Doty, forcing him several times to throw off-target passes on third down. For the first 58 minutes, it was a winning effort by the D.

There was great energy on the sidelines. Special teams had their best game yet.

But now I will do something I seldom do: criticize the coaches. I was disappointed that once Vandy took the lead late in the third, the offense went conservative, and (guess what) started going 3-and-out. Thanks largely to Rocko Griffin's* tough running, Vandy did get Joe Bulovas a field goal attempt. But at the point in the game when another TD might have sent the Williams-Brice crowd to the exits, the offensive braintrust went inside their shell. (I didn't have a problem going for a field goal on 4th-and-5; under most circumstances that's the right thing to do.)

But on the last drive, when Vandy absolutely had to have a stop, the defensive coaches abandoned what had been working and dropped eight guys into zone coverage. With all the time in the world to throw, Doty (and on the last play, Zeb Noland) predictably found and hit open receivers. Vandy's defense bent, and broke. They'd been getting pressure with four guys and the occasional blitz; why go away from it?

Still, it was a much better game than anyone expected. Big picture, people: raise your hand if you thought Vandy had a chance to win on the road, playing without Seals? You might question the coaches' strategy in the last five minutes, but you also need to acknowledge that they elevated the team's level of play this week. The loss only hurts like hell because the chance for victory was right there. It wasn't won or lost on any one play or series; both teams made enough mistakes and blew enough opportunities that it could have been a 14-point game either way. (On a crucial fourth-and-goal play in the first quarter, Vandy's center snapped the ball off his own butt.) But note this: Vandy has been outright embarrassed three times this season (ETSU, UGA, Florida) and each time the team has bounced back the very next week with a good showing and made the game a nail-biter. (A 3-point win, a 2-point win, and a 1-point loss.)

This game raises my expectations a bit for the final five games. And it also creates a legitimate dilemma for the coaches (and us rabid fans): which quarterback (and corresponding offensive style) gives Vandy the best chance to win? For my money, the offense with Wright behind center looked darn good; I just wish they hadn't taken their foot off the gas.

* Griffin is my undersung player of the game; he has really surprised me with his ability. Late in the game, Vandy needed a back to get a few tough first downs up the middle-- without fumbling-- and Griffin did just that. He is a tough, strong, cool customer... I loved the play where he pushed the pile for about 13 yards. Yeah, he gets stuffed a lot going up the middle, but that usually ain't his fault.


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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by kay1092 »

it was a way better game than normal. But why was Wright getting this time? Because of injury. He also put up more explosive plays today than seals the past two years. The Fade on 3rd down, and the fumbled trick play on 4th cost us the game if we kicked a FG from the 5! Not to mention the last drive when USC's backup QB who was cold as ice we made look like Montana by playing prevent D. The coaching staff lost the game. And then he blamed the players in the press conference, pathetic.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by Vandy_Law07 »

Good OP. Tough loss- but the type of loss teams (and coaching staffs!) usually have to endure on their way to becoming truly better. Hopefully the case here…
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by LawoftheWest »

I watched the entire game on TV. I feel this was a tale of two cities (oops, two, or more, quarters). In my view we outcoached and outplayed SC for 3 quarters. Then we went in to not lose mode. This is on the coaches. We became defensive. Our play calling on both offense and defense was "not to lose". As has been written many times, when a team becomes defensive and plays not to lose, the result is often to lose.

For example, in the last SC drive we had 3 down linemen, 2 linebackers and 6 defensive backs. We put no pressure on their QB. He had lots of time to find a receiver. We had no blitzing, by linebackers or cornerbacks. So, their QB had lots of time to find a receiver. We ran zone coverage, but never mixed it up with man-to-man.

Maybe our coaches will learn from this, maybe not. I hope they will. However, I feel that defensive mindset of playing not to lose is ingrained in the mindset of many coaches.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by SCSA »

It was Bobbyesque. Okay close. Go conservative at the end and claim a close loss. He’ll probably get a five year extension after this. Very good post, but I just can’t invest any more energy. This was a truly awful SC team
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by VUDU »

Here's the thing about the last SC drive. We didn't even TRY to rush the QB one single time. The three-man rush wasn't working AT ALL and our coaches never changed or adjusted. When SC got to the 9, I thought surely we'll blitz now. Nope.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by roanoke »

I used to post a game summary after each game for several years. It was a joy during the Franklin years. It got to be so miserable during the Mason years that I just quit doing it. It was the same, terrible story and criticisms and analysis for about seven years. CDM would change every once in a while when faced with a mutiny - but would always revert to trying to be Stanford of the 90s and playing smashmouth football. It was dreary and dreadful - and I don't mean to dredge this up yet again, except for noting that the exodus last year was dramatic and we lost a bunch of players and that is the reality in which our current coaching staff finds itself.

Has the coaching staff made some serious in-game blunders? Yes. Do they repeat a lot of them - yes. For example, the opening vanilla that almost always yields an opposing td or two before we do something dramatic like blitz. Do we run up the middle way too often - and way too predictably making it easier to defend us? Yes. Was the decision to stop blitzing for the final drive a complete train wreck - yes, it was a hellishly bad decision that is indefensible. And to continue it after the first three completions was close to malpractice. But....

the staff does seem to learn. Albeit sometimes too slowly.

As an example of this, I will give you the game plan yesterday. With Wright in, we ran a lot more misdirection, and we had time to run downfield plays because he could extend plays with his legs. It worked - and we had a decent game plan. Again, in the red zone we got a bit conservative and it bit us. But our staff knows how to use misdirection - and it isn't using it for Seals because they seem to think there just isn't time? If they are right about that - they need to play Wright, because we are a lot better when we are not constantly running up the middle and passing from the pocket. The quick throws will work well against UConn and Colorado State - but not against Georgia's and UT's who will blitz and cover the short stuff and shut us down with no plan b. In three games this year we have already gone without a td.

Oddly, I am pleased to see the angst on the board this morning. It means people care again - at least a little. The last several years of Mason's reign it was hard to care as we rode out a steep, hopeless decline. He should have been fired long before he was. Angst means expectation, at least.

Coach Lea made a lot of mistakes yesterday - but I do see a learning trajectory. The thing about coaching at Notre Dame is - your players are usually better than your competition, so you "go by the book" more often. At Vandy, it is the opposite. So he needs to throw out the book and play like a gambler - trying to use any edge he can. The edge is not sitting back in a prevent or opening in a vanilla zone to see what the other team can do. It is also not running up the middle twice and pocket passing on our opening three and out. It is from play one trying to outsmart the opponent and fool them. that was the brilliance of James Franklin. He understood he had to gamble, he understood he had to do whatever was working until it got stopped, he did not stop running the wheel route that was wide open because the qb made one bad throw.

It is established that it is generally very hard to play back to back road SEC games. Particularly after getting skunked in Gainesville. We played a remarkably clean game yesterday. Few penalties - our d forced some lovely turnovers. SC really gift wrapped it for us - but we just did not know how to finish it. I, personally, saw progress. It means nothing if we do not build on it. But there was progress. I think Coach Lea will figure this out - and criticism is fair. Coaching decisions cost us that game yesterday - but he had his team ready to play.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by commadore »

kay1092 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:56 pm it was a way better game than normal. But why was Wright getting this time? Because of injury. He also put up more explosive plays today than seals the past two years. The Fade on 3rd down, and the fumbled trick play on 4th cost us the game if we kicked a FG from the 5! Not to mention the last drive when USC's backup QB who was cold as ice we made look like Montana by playing prevent D. The coaching staff lost the game. And then he blamed the players in the press conference, pathetic.
Good God, I can't believe I am saying this, but I totally agree with Kay. All other coaching errors aside, just kick the field goal in the first half and we win this game. Yes, we looked much better, but against probably the second worst team in the league. Oh well, we are Vandy and that is what we do. :cry:
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by commadore »

LawoftheWest wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:07 am I watched the entire game on TV. I feel this was a tale of two cities (oops, two, or more, quarters). In my view we outcoached and outplayed SC for 3 quarters. Then we went in to not lose mode. This is on the coaches. We became defensive. Our play calling on both offense and defense was "not to lose". As has been written many times, when a team becomes defensive and plays not to lose, the result is often to lose.

For example, in the last SC drive we had 3 down linemen, 2 linebackers and 6 defensive backs. We put no pressure on their QB. He had lots of time to find a receiver. We had no blitzing, by linebackers or cornerbacks. So, their QB had lots of time to find a receiver. We ran zone coverage, but never mixed it up with man-to-man.

Maybe our coaches will learn from this, maybe not. I hope they will. However, I feel that defensive mindset of playing not to lose is ingrained in the mindset of many coaches.
Sort of like a three point shooting team going into the four corners offense without a point guard. That looks familiar too.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by dore74 »

Great to get these back Roanoke. You’re like an elixir, even after a loss like this.
A couple of thoughts. We gambled on that 4th and five early on aggressively and then on the three man rush conservatively and they both blew up in our face.
I wonder whether we win with Seals arm or if Wright is the answer to our line weakness?
Growing pains for the staff or more meh…time will tell
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by Seadog73 »

Brent, Roanoke, your post-game posts are always spot-on, wise, and rational. Thank you.
I wonder what it is about coaches psyche that causes them to go to a prevent defense, and stick with it into a loss, when that style is NOT what put you in the lead in the first place.
It will be interesting to see what happens with our QB's the next few games. Wright was as accurate as Seals, and more dynamic. The whole offense was more dynamic.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by roanoke »

I’m glad you raised that: Gambling on the 4th down isn’t necessarily the gambling strategy that I mean.

In fact, on the game thread, that decision was roundly criticized not because he went for it - but because the prior fade route left us with fourth and four. If he was going for it, run something to gain some yards on third…

Again, yesterday at crunch time the SC d was focusing on Wright and Wright was keeping the ball a lot. Those plays didn’t work because they were exactly what the d expected. Wright was dangerous when he rolled out and the d didn’t know if he would run or throw.

On our third down and three at crunch time, if Wright had given the ball up, it was a first down. Late in the game, with the d keying on Wright is when Griffin did his best damage.

I’d like us to do the unexpected more often on offense is my main thought. Just having Wright in certainly discouraged SC from all out blitzes. Why we focused on the pocket passing at the end is another head-scratcher?

This is a weird instance where Seals and Wright offer very different talents and the staff can use both. I think the staff is hamstringing Seals by not widening the field and using more field so D’s aren’t packing the middle and blitzing all day. I am not sure who is “better”, but with Wright and this o-line and our current OC, Wright offers a broader spectrum of plays which translates to a better offense. Seals is better at the quick release throws - but until the OC gets less predictable, they won’t be there against good defenses that will pack the middle and bring heat. Screens, misdirection and fakes up the middle will punish this. We tend to go instead with obvious wide receiver screens with 3 guys wide for Seals: again, that isn’t a surprise. It’s a show them what’s coming and try to “out execute” them plan.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by dorefaninktown »

Roanoke, I have always enjoyed your post. The mason era drove me away from this site as there was nothing left to say and think. The only quibble I have is that it wasn't the Stanford of thr 90s, but the one directly he left and forced a speedy but small offense to replicate. Mason did what so many coaches do and that is not analyze his talent and find an offense around it. But the biggest failure was his belief we could ever produce talent to block sec lineman for a non mobile QB.

Which brings up the dilemma this team faces now. Seals has a decent enough sec arm and non existent athleticism. At Mississippi State or georgia, he'd fit fine in their system. But with our line, it is never ever gonna work.

Does the coaching staff know this? Maybe. Their plan was to play 2 qbs supposedly before the season starts. Etsu threw that out of the window.

Obviously seals was out Monday morning and it seemed like the playbook was reengineered for Weight, which is why I think the offense had more energy. That knew it could work. If seals had played, usc would have had at least 5 more sacks.

Again, this is not a knock on seals at all, he was just recruited to play in a system that is designed to leverage talent and size advantages. It also has worked at schools in areas and conferences where smart schools can get good pro style qbs and tight ends without having to face NFL defenses. In another conference, masons vision would have worked, possibly.

I honestly think the best thing for all is for seals to find a program that runs pro style akd for Lea to hit portal hard for a back up to weight and perhaps it took a hand injury to show him so.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by belair »

Great post and on point observations.
I commented during the game that where did we get a defense all of the sudden. Clearly much improved on that side of the ball. Schemes were good, great effort in the trenches, and plenty of flying around and hawking the ball.
On the offensive side we were less predictable until we were. Wright adds a “helter skelter” mode that works best when things break down and the defense gets confused. I too questioned giving up the wheel route after one bad play.
Similar to Stackhouse one thing that can be said is Clark’s team plays hard. Terrific effort.
We were a 19 point dog and I was looking to the game as a barometer of where we stacked up against the lower tier in the SEC. We are not that far behind it seems. We first have to compete with SC, Miss St, and Mizzou.
Poor coaching in game cost us this one. But the product we brought TO the field clearly better.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by admin »

I think Wright is the right choice for our starting QB. If he falters put Seals in.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by dcdore »

While there is, rightfully, much discussion and criticism of the soft D played on SC's last drive, I think equally as damaging was the conservative offense late in the game. We had the ball twice where a first down would have sealed the deal and we wouldn't be talking about SC's last drive.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by BrentVU »

roanoke wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:52 am I used to post a game summary after each game for several years. It was a joy during the Franklin years. It got to be so miserable during the Mason years that I just quit doing it. It was the same, terrible story and criticisms and analysis for about seven years.
I always enjoyed your recaps, even if they were sometimes "dreadful".

One general clarification (not addressed to roanoke): there were some passing plays called after we went up 17-14, and on a number of them, Wright threw the ball out of bounds rather than throwing into coverage. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, that's a good thing. Good on him. But it looked to me as though they had stressed to him, whatever you do, don't throw a pick and undo all the good work you've done so far. That may have been a real danger, but it seemed like the coaches were so terrified of an INT that they didn't want Wright trying to make any plays that weren't there. As a result, Wright had only two completions (on four attempts) for very short yardage once Vandy was in the lead, and he got sacked once.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by VandyPhile »

Wright’s throwing looked considerably better yesterday. I had not been impressed by his earlier outings. I’m glad to see the better version.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by VU1970 »

What surprised me was that the offence under Wright was much less effective in the red zone than I would have predicted. (Last year, he was often the go-to guy when we got close to the goal line.)

The fact that Vandy as the visiting team had far fewer penalties called on them than the home team (I think it was 3 vs 10) was impressive. So were the four takeaways by the D.
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Re: Thoughts on Vandy's loss to South Carolina

Post by kay1092 »

roanoke wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:52 am I used to post a game summary after each game for several years. It was a joy during the Franklin years. It got to be so miserable during the Mason years that I just quit doing it. It was the same, terrible story and criticisms and analysis for about seven years. CDM would change every once in a while when faced with a mutiny - but would always revert to trying to be Stanford of the 90s and playing smashmouth football. It was dreary and dreadful - and I don't mean to dredge this up yet again, except for noting that the exodus last year was dramatic and we lost a bunch of players and that is the reality in which our current coaching staff finds itself.

Has the coaching staff made some serious in-game blunders? Yes. Do they repeat a lot of them - yes. For example, the opening vanilla that almost always yields an opposing td or two before we do something dramatic like blitz. Do we run up the middle way too often - and way too predictably making it easier to defend us? Yes. Was the decision to stop blitzing for the final drive a complete train wreck - yes, it was a hellishly bad decision that is indefensible. And to continue it after the first three completions was close to malpractice. But....

the staff does seem to learn. Albeit sometimes too slowly.

As an example of this, I will give you the game plan yesterday. With Wright in, we ran a lot more misdirection, and we had time to run downfield plays because he could extend plays with his legs. It worked - and we had a decent game plan. Again, in the red zone we got a bit conservative and it bit us. But our staff knows how to use misdirection - and it isn't using it for Seals because they seem to think there just isn't time? If they are right about that - they need to play Wright, because we are a lot better when we are not constantly running up the middle and passing from the pocket. The quick throws will work well against UConn and Colorado State - but not against Georgia's and UT's who will blitz and cover the short stuff and shut us down with no plan b. In three games this year we have already gone without a td.

Oddly, I am pleased to see the angst on the board this morning. It means people care again - at least a little. The last several years of Mason's reign it was hard to care as we rode out a steep, hopeless decline. He should have been fired long before he was. Angst means expectation, at least.

Coach Lea made a lot of mistakes yesterday - but I do see a learning trajectory. The thing about coaching at Notre Dame is - your players are usually better than your competition, so you "go by the book" more often. At Vandy, it is the opposite. So he needs to throw out the book and play like a gambler - trying to use any edge he can. The edge is not sitting back in a prevent or opening in a vanilla zone to see what the other team can do. It is also not running up the middle twice and pocket passing on our opening three and out. It is from play one trying to outsmart the opponent and fool them. that was the brilliance of James Franklin. He understood he had to gamble, he understood he had to do whatever was working until it got stopped, he did not stop running the wheel route that was wide open because the qb made one bad throw.

It is established that it is generally very hard to play back to back road SEC games. Particularly after getting skunked in Gainesville. We played a remarkably clean game yesterday. Few penalties - our d forced some lovely turnovers. SC really gift wrapped it for us - but we just did not know how to finish it. I, personally, saw progress. It means nothing if we do not build on it. But there was progress. I think Coach Lea will figure this out - and criticism is fair. Coaching decisions cost us that game yesterday - but he had his team ready to play.
Totally agree. Franklin knew what our other coaches need several hard losses to figure out. The question is why did he intuitively. know this? He was never a HC, he was never in the SEC but he knew how to win here. No one else seems to know. I stand by you either know or you don't, so far no one else does. We go for it when we should kick a FG and we play prevent when we should blitz. It is comical
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