NCAA coaching these days….

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roanoke
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NCAA coaching these days….

Post by roanoke »

Sometimes I know in advance that something I write will be unpopular. This is one of those times.

I understand the disappointment with where our program is right now. I’d rather be a perennial tourney team than struggling to be.500 in year 4.

At the same time, I am glad to have Stack as our coach - and I think he is slowly building in the right direction. We have certainly not been lucky during his tenure - ravaged by injuries and departures for several years. I can safely say if Robbins and Chatman had been healthy last year, we would not be having this conversation. We would have been really good.

But I will point out a few positives for Vandy hoops right now. Vandy has rarely had such a good presence in the NBA. Garland is an all-star, Kornet is having a great season and Nesmith has arrived as well. Then we have Damian Jones on the Lakers and Saben Lee is playing for Phoenix and SPJ is on the G-league periphery. You might say, what good does that do us? But it does a lot of good - kids of this generation know they can come to Vandy and be a pro.

We have a lot of talent on this team. Many of the most discontented of our fan base predicted maybe 2 wins in conference. We are 4-6 - with some winnable games on the horizon. Many of those who complain about not giving time to youngsters are the first to scream when we lose games because we do give youth playing time. That was a story of our o-o-c schedule - if we had stuck to a top 7 rotation we probably beat Grambling for example. Sadly, we do have to keep our young guys if we want to be good next year - and in this day and age keeping players is not so easy. See Jim Boeheim’s very accurate rant about NIL and the portal. Players have to be mentally tough enough to buy in long-haul. If they don’t, they can’t really help us. Lawrence just had his best game of the season after getting benched. Message probably received. Hopefully the younger guys are seeing where they fit in. Dia and Smith are getting in the mix. Lewis more so lately too. I think all three have very high ceilings.

I’m not saying Stack is without fault. I do like his rotation concept - although sometimes the rotations lack scoring chemistry which does lead to head scratching. Time outs to stop runs could happen more too. I do think he is playing young guys sufficiently this year - folks just seem not to notice. Shelby is the one player not getting a lot of time. When he turns up the defensive intensity, his minutes will likely go up. Basically CJS is not a coddler - and I am old school enough to like that.

Finally, there is a constant desire on the board to return to the good old days. They are gone - the game has changed. The change to the 30 second clock hurt “Vanderbilt” basketball. It hurt CKS. Teams can ballhawk you for 10 seconds and then leave you little time to run multiple sets - and if you try to stick to multiple sets it results in chucks to beat the buzzer. The result is a lot more 1-1 and freelancing everywhere. We run sets - but, again, it’s rarely noticed. I too like team ball - but it is less available when the world is teaching players to be all about stats and me-me-me. It is tough coaching these days - especially with the NIL money and poaching going on. If our donors contribute to NIL and we keep our players who are eligible for next year - we are going to get better.

If we burn it all down, we are going to add 3 more years of not reaching the tournament as we rebuild from scratch. Again. Patience is rarely popular. But be patient. And maybe, if the shoe fits, support your team more positively. I happen to like Stack - I do recognize he needs to get over the hump eventually. The odds of our getting over the hump in the next two years are higher if we keep him than if we let him go in my opinion.


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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Go Vandy! »

I agree. I'd give him a iron-clad contract right now for 99 years, with an option for 99 more.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Minoadoc »

i always value your posts. Vandy, "79, have lived in syracuse for 36 years. My head did a double take on your Boeheim comment. Nationally, he is being panned. We literally just got a top 100 Bball recruit for '24 because of NIL. You might want to go on Syracusefan.com, our numerically more engaged version of vandymania. His comment is closing the last remains of loyalty to him after close to 50 years of service to the university and community
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Jason94 »

roanoke wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:11 pm Many of those who complain about not giving time to youngsters are the first to scream when we lose games because we do give youth playing time.
Isn't it the coach's job to do what is right for the program despite what fans might say? But regardless, this is the opposite of the complaint this season. He hasn't played his freshmen and the Grambling loss was definitely not due to an overuse of freshmen. In that game 7 players got more than 6 minutes - only Smith was a freshman of those 7, and he had one of his best games - 13 points and 8 rebounds. Shelby didn't play at all, Lewis was injured, Dort and Dia combined for 7 minutes total. We lost that game because we had 19 TO's to their 7, and they were able to get up a lot more shots than we did because of it.

I think your posts are general very level headed and balanced, but I disagree completely with this part. And this is coming from someone who agrees that we will be better off if CJS figures things out as opposed to burning it all down, which would be the worst case outcome.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by charlestonalum »

Jason. Roanoke did not say we played frosh too much in the Gramling game. His inference, as I understand it, is that the critics will criticize whatever he does even if it is opposite the previous criticism. Stack, it seems, has made some enemies for life on this board. No victory is good enough and each loss the worst ever.
Life of a coach is hard: I also know he is well paid and signed up for it.
For me, I just hope we win, I'm not smart enough to know who to play and when to call timeouts, but I sure like to beat UT, and Wednesday would be a good time to do it after so many losses to them in a row. Buckle up.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Jason94 »

charlestonalum wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:21 pm Jason. Roanoke did not say we played frosh too much in the Gramling game. His inference, as I understand it, is that the critics will criticize whatever he does even if it is opposite the previous criticism. Stack, it seems, has made some enemies for life on this board. No victory is good enough and each loss the worst ever.
Life of a coach is hard: I also know he is well paid and signed up for it.
For me, I just hope we win, I'm not smart enough to know who to play and when to call timeouts, but I sure like to beat UT, and Wednesday would be a good time to do it after so many losses to them in a row. Buckle up.
He said if we stuck with a top 7 rotation we would have beaten Grambling State (implying that he was trying to get the freshmen into the game and lost because of it). Except that isn't what happened. We played our veterans against Grambling State and they crapped the bed in that game.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by charlestonalum »

Jason94 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:59 am
charlestonalum wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:21 pm Jason. Roanoke did not say we played frosh too much in the Gramling game. His inference, as I understand it, is that the critics will criticize whatever he does even if it is opposite the previous criticism. Stack, it seems, has made some enemies for life on this board. No victory is good enough and each loss the worst ever.
Life of a coach is hard: I also know he is well paid and signed up for it.
For me, I just hope we win, I'm not smart enough to know who to play and when to call timeouts, but I sure like to beat UT, and Wednesday would be a good time to do it after so many losses to them in a row. Buckle up.
He said if we stuck with a top 7 rotation we would have beaten Grambling State (implying that he was trying to get the freshmen into the game and lost because of it). Except that isn't what happened. We played our veterans against Grambling State and they crapped the bed in that game.
Exactly as stated: the complaints come no matter what Stack does. The problem for coach is even when we win, the complaint is we should have won by more etc.

By the way your posts are good and perhaps I misinterpreted your intent. Jason, you are not one of the critics I had in mind - we have a few who would have already fired the coach after the "crap" game vs. Grambling. Fortunately they are not in charge.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Jason94 »

charlestonalum wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:02 am
Jason94 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:59 am
charlestonalum wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:21 pm Jason. Roanoke did not say we played frosh too much in the Gramling game. His inference, as I understand it, is that the critics will criticize whatever he does even if it is opposite the previous criticism. Stack, it seems, has made some enemies for life on this board. No victory is good enough and each loss the worst ever.
Life of a coach is hard: I also know he is well paid and signed up for it.
For me, I just hope we win, I'm not smart enough to know who to play and when to call timeouts, but I sure like to beat UT, and Wednesday would be a good time to do it after so many losses to them in a row. Buckle up.
He said if we stuck with a top 7 rotation we would have beaten Grambling State (implying that he was trying to get the freshmen into the game and lost because of it). Except that isn't what happened. We played our veterans against Grambling State and they crapped the bed in that game.
Exactly as stated: the complaints come no matter what Stack does. The problem for coach is even when we win, the complaint is we should have won by more etc.

By the way your posts are good and perhaps I misinterpreted your intent. Jason, you are not one of the critics I had in mind - we have a few who would have already fired the coach after the "crap" game vs. Grambling. Fortunately they are not in charge.
I agree that some are not going to be happy regardless of what CJS does. But this is true of most every coach at any time - We had posters here in 2013 when we were going to forget about the 2012 SEC tournament Championship - some people will just be negative all the time. I was specifically referring to a particular comment - the rest of the post by Roanoke was good overall. My concerns about freshmen is one of development - I noted before the season started that CJS should trade potential wins for development of Shelby and that could be pay off in February. What disappointed me was that we didn't play Shelby or Dort much early on and still lot a lot of games, which I think is a fair critique of CJS' decision to prioritize playing players like QMB, Thomas and Ansong over Dia, Shelby and Dort.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by roanoke »

I appreciate the conversation here. Charleston is more on point with the spirit of what I was saying, while Jason actually taught me something about what i literally said.

My overriding point: it is hard to coach these days. And easy for fans to complain. You do have to please the young while also satisfying your experienced players - and getting W’s. To play the young guys, you have to expect a little inexperience. That eats into your odds of winning.

In that regard, I recall watching the Grambling game seeing freshmen in the game and thinking - we are losing, why is he doing this? Jason’s minutes played from the box score doesn’t lie. Frosh - except for Smith - didn’t play much in that game. So my mind played tricks on me. But that is my point - when you lose, even fans trying to pay attention remember we lost by two while playing frosh who (except for Smith) registered no points. Again, they need time to get better - but when you lose everything goes to seed. Case in point, if Lawrence lets go of the ball a moment later last night, Stack is “a bum” for not calling timeouts down the stretch….

Most importantly, I think this conversation seems to recognize burning it all down is not wise - and is a bit knee-jerk…. And, frankly, I expected more pushback. Hopefully the UT win will put Stack on firmer ground with the fan base. Since this thread started, some NIL money seems to have come through for Shelby too. This encourages me that Maybe we can keep the band together? I honestly feel we will be good if we do.

Again, it’s not easy: take Stute as a case in point - he shoots us to recent wins, and then just lays bricks last night. Kids are not machines. Some days they have it - some days not. Match-ups in hoops don’t always make sense. Coaches have to read this in real-time - and sometimes it means game plans go up in smoke. Hard job.

p.s. Smith contributed big last night. And his d is improving. I think Dia is a future star. I was surprised he didn’t get in last night - but there you go. We won. Finally, I like the twin towers. It makes both players better. I think Stute needs to be in rotation with Q, because he needs the screens.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by Jason94 »

roanoke wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:07 am I appreciate the conversation here. Charleston is more on point with the spirit of what I was saying, while Jason actually taught me something about what i literally said.

My overriding point: it is hard to coach these days. And easy for fans to complain. You do have to please the young while also satisfying your experienced players - and getting W’s. To play the young guys, you have to expect a little inexperience. That eats into your odds of winning.

In that regard, I recall watching the Grambling game seeing freshmen in the game and thinking - we are losing, why is he doing this? Jason’s minutes played from the box score doesn’t lie. Frosh - except for Smith - didn’t play much in that game. So my mind played tricks on me. But that is my point - when you lose, even fans trying to pay attention remember we lost by two while playing frosh who (except for Smith) registered no points. Again, they need time to get better - but when you lose everything goes to seed. Case in point, if Lawrence lets go of the ball a moment later last night, Stack is “a bum” for not calling timeouts down the stretch….

Most importantly, I think this conversation seems to recognize burning it all down is not wise - and is a bit knee-jerk…. And, frankly, I expected more pushback. Hopefully the UT win will put Stack on firmer ground with the fan base. Since this thread started, some NIL money seems to have come through for Shelby too. This encourages me that Maybe we can keep the band together? I honestly feel we will be good if we do.

Again, it’s not easy: take Stute as a case in point - he shoots us to recent wins, and then just lays bricks last night. Kids are not machines. Some days they have it - some days not. Match-ups in hoops don’t always make sense. Coaches have to read this in real-time - and sometimes it means game plans go up in smoke. Hard job.
No, I was knit picking a bit with the grambling game as an example - I agree that the best case scenario is CJS has success here and gets us to the tournament. This is a similar discussion with what was going on with CKS back in 2003 or 2006 and what happened in 2017 (even when it was correct to move on). The next coach is not guaranteed to be an improvement over the previous coach (the exception being CBD who went 0-18) and there will always be loss during a transition.

My criticisms have been specifically assuming that CJS would be back and looking forward to what we had back for next season. That combined with the talent I see in the freshmen class and understanding that they will have to pick up the torch at some point, which could be as soon as next season. My point is that it is unlikely to have changed the result of any of the games we've played thus far and actual high pressure PT is extremely valuable - you can be exposed far more in games than in practice.
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Re: NCAA coaching these days….

Post by MrMemorial »

roanoke wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:07 am I appreciate the conversation here. Charleston is more on point with the spirit of what I was saying, while Jason actually taught me something about what i literally said.

My overriding point: it is hard to coach these days. And easy for fans to complain. You do have to please the young while also satisfying your experienced players - and getting W’s. To play the young guys, you have to expect a little inexperience. That eats into your odds of winning.

In that regard, I recall watching the Grambling game seeing freshmen in the game and thinking - we are losing, why is he doing this? Jason’s minutes played from the box score doesn’t lie. Frosh - except for Smith - didn’t play much in that game. So my mind played tricks on me. But that is my point - when you lose, even fans trying to pay attention remember we lost by two while playing frosh who (except for Smith) registered no points. Again, they need time to get better - but when you lose everything goes to seed. Case in point, if Lawrence lets go of the ball a moment later last night, Stack is “a bum” for not calling timeouts down the stretch….

Most importantly, I think this conversation seems to recognize burning it all down is not wise - and is a bit knee-jerk…. And, frankly, I expected more pushback. Hopefully the UT win will put Stack on firmer ground with the fan base. Since this thread started, some NIL money seems to have come through for Shelby too. This encourages me that Maybe we can keep the band together? I honestly feel we will be good if we do.

Again, it’s not easy: take Stute as a case in point - he shoots us to recent wins, and then just lays bricks last night. Kids are not machines. Some days they have it - some days not. Match-ups in hoops don’t always make sense. Coaches have to read this in real-time - and sometimes it means game plans go up in smoke. Hard job.

p.s. Smith contributed big last night. And his d is improving. I think Dia is a future star. I was surprised he didn’t get in last night - but there you go. We won. Finally, I like the twin towers. It makes both players better. I think Stute needs to be in rotation with Q, because he needs the screens.
Three point shooters can be streaky. On all levels.

Ja Morant is one of the best basketball players in a long time. Just under 33% from three. Not only this year but all time in the NBA. John Konchar on the other hand (good example because he looks like Vescovi?) is a 39% career NBA 3-point shooter but is 20% in his last 10 games. It happens.
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