Thomas knows someone-Special

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Dorewithaflare
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Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Dorewithaflare »

This guy is on the court in two games for18:53 &24:01, shoots 2 for18 from three. Leaked in his only make today on a three bounce. Coach said it was the shoot of the game. Thomas knows someone-Special


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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by dotcommie »

Well, Vandy only won by 3, so in some respect, one could say any of the three point shots saved the game.
To get one from a player whose percentages aren't the best, could be seen as a pretty important shot.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Jason94 »

dotcommie wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:32 pm Well, Vandy only won by 3, so in some respect, one could say any of the three point shots saved the game.
To get one from a player whose percentages aren't the best, could be seen as a pretty important shot.
Yes, that is an extremely generous way of looking at things but accurate in the literal sense. When trying to understand overall value of a player to a team, and note that if your three point specialist shot better than 27% from three point land that perhaps the game wouldn't require saving in the first place and we might have cruised to a double digit win.

The OP also has a point that perhaps another might be more efficient with the 43 minutes and 18 shots over the past two games than Thomas would be, and if we were to identify that player, the net result would be more points for us, less points for the opponents, or both.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by VandyDores15 »

It’s ridiculous how much he’s playing, could cause a younger guy to transfer bc Trey ate minutes. And Trey has not had a very good season, so it’s a bad look he’s “required by CJS” to be playing so much on his year 4 team.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by commadore »

He was in at the end because he is the best foul shooter on the team. Unfortunately it doesn't help when the ref lets them triple mug him into a turnover.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Obvious »

Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by charlestonalum »

Obvious wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 pm Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
And he does hit 3's and he typifies most Vanderbilt student athletes: not highly recruited but hard working and team- oriented making the most of potential vs vastly talented semi-pros. So get off his back: I respect him and his playing time.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Vandamnit »

I can totally understand folks' frustration as well as the counterpoints offered here. But...the notion that freshmen are going to transfer out NEXT year, because they didn't get PT THIS year doesn't make as much sense to me. Don't you all expect Dia, Dort, Shelby, and Lewis to get much more playing time next year with departures (Robbins, QMB, Wright, Manjon, Ansong)?
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by VandyDores15 »

charlestonalum wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:39 am
Obvious wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 pm Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
And he does hit 3's and he typifies most Vanderbilt student athletes: not highly recruited but hard working and team- oriented making the most of potential vs vastly talented semi-pros. So get off his back: I respect him and his playing time.
He’s shooting 30.8% from 3pt, nothing close to a shooting specialist. I respect Trey as well and he’s overcome the odds and seems to be an awesome dude. But teams making the tournament have much better players playing 20+ minutes.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by VandyDores15 »

Vandamnit wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:00 am I can totally understand folks' frustration as well as the counterpoints offered here. But...the notion that freshmen are going to transfer out NEXT year, because they didn't get PT THIS year doesn't make as much sense to me. Don't you all expect Dia, Dort, Shelby, and Lewis to get much more playing time next year with departures (Robbins, QMB, Wright, Manjon, Ansong)?
Robbins and Ansong (who isn’t playing much) are the only ones out of eligibility. If others come back, then yes the freshman would potentially feel their playing time would again be capped. If more older guys decide to leave, maybe an easier decision to stay.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Jason94 »

Obvious wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 pm Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
Shelby hasn't turned the ball over a single time the entire season. Not has a low turnover rate but has zero turnovers in well over 100 minutes of playing time. So that isn't the reason.

Thomas plays a spot up shooter role - that role is one where you locate yourself behind the arc and wait for someone to deliver the ball to you and you shoot it if you are open and pass it back if you are not. He is not probing the defense with his ball handling and setting up teammates. Compare his TO rate to say, Foster in 2006, Cage in 2007, Jenkins in 2010, Fisher-Davis in 2016 and his TO rate is higher than all of those players but he hits his three point shot at a significantly lower percentage. His TO rate is lower than it was last year when he was asked to play a lot of PG, but his assist rate this season is under 10%, meaning he isn't playing point in any meaningful way.

His TO rate is acceptable for the role he plays, the problem is that he is performing the role quite poorly. And yet being rewarded with a lot of PT. Thomas is playing at the top of his capability as an experienced player and is not noticeably better than Shelby, who is very raw and indiscriminate in his shooting attempts. I could get low turnovers and poor three point shooting percentages from either. But with PT I might get a lot more from Shelby, while Thomas is who he is.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Obvious »

VandyDores15 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:31 am
charlestonalum wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:39 am
Obvious wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 pm Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
And he does hit 3's and he typifies most Vanderbilt student athletes: not highly recruited but hard working and team- oriented making the most of potential vs vastly talented semi-pros. So get off his back: I respect him and his playing time.
He keeps the ball moving on offense. He doesn’t try to do things on his own. If he gets an open look he takes it. We’ve all see trey hit big shots

He’s shooting 30.8% from 3pt, nothing close to a shooting specialist. I respect Trey as well and he’s overcome the odds and seems to be an awesome dude. But teams making the tournament have much better players playing 20+ minutes.
He keeps the ball moving on offense. He doesn’t try to do things on his own. If he gets an open look he takes it. We’ve all seen trey hit big shots. He’s not exactly killing us just because he’s not hitting all of his threes. He’s not hurting us either. When some of the freshmen come in they want to take over and love every bad shot they take.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Obvious »

I don’t get to distribute playing time. I’m just offering an explanation of why stackhouse plays him.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by UltimateVUFan »

Jason94 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:19 am
Obvious wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 pm Trey Thomas plays because he doesn’t turn the ball over. He might not fill up the bucket but he doesn’t give it away either.
Shelby hasn't turned the ball over a single time the entire season. Not has a low turnover rate but has zero turnovers in well over 100 minutes of playing time. So that isn't the reason.
Jason, I respect your opinion and your objectivity. However, I feel obligated to point out that this is because Shelby so far this year has been almost entirely a catch and shoot player. He doesn’t handle the ball anywhere near as much as Trey does. Trey frequently brings the ball up court and does run point on occasion in the offense. Yes, he doesn’t have a great assist rate. But he does what he does better than Shelby at this point.
I understand the sentiment re: Shelby needing PT to develop. But then, I suspect there are many intangibles CJS weighs when doling out PT.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Foreverhopeful »

Shelby has not yet done what needs to be done in practice.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by cc11316 »

Thomas hasn't done anything wrong but he was recruited by teams like UMass and Rice as a 2 star or low 3 star as I recall. He seems to be a guy that should be playing 5 minutes or less a game or potentially in times where foul trouble or injury force additional minutes. One poster said it correctly in that he likely wouldn't be playing as much at Belmont or Lipscomb as he seems to be playing more minutes here so that seems problematic.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Obvious »

cc11316 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:06 pm Thomas hasn't done anything wrong but he was recruited by teams like UMass and Rice as a 2 star or low 3 star as I recall. He seems to be a guy that should be playing 5 minutes or less a game or potentially in times where foul trouble or injury force additional minutes. One poster said it correctly in that he likely wouldn't be playing as much at Belmont or Lipscomb as he seems to be playing more minutes here so that seems problematic.
Pippen Jr didn’t have any major offers either. Stars don’t reflect too much. McBride was signed to Kansas then transferred to Vanderbilt. Big schools miss as well. Look at ja morant from Murray state.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Obvious »

All that being said, if we’re looking at recruiting stars we have a few guys that really needy to step up. Trey Thomas probably has topped out. When other guys reach their potential they will get more minutes too.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by vandyman24 »

I think trey gives everything he’s got on the court and stackhouse obviously sees something in practice. In my opinion, the biggest negative for me regarding trey is his defense. When a guy is undersized as much as trey is, he better be able to pressure the ball and force a team out of their offense or at least disrupt it often. He’s not able to do that. He’s constantly getting beat off the dribble which breaks down the entire defense and leads to open shots. Trey is doing everything he can do, but he doesn’t have the physical tools to be consistently effective at this level.
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Re: Thomas knows someone-Special

Post by Jason94 »

Obvious wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:21 am
VandyDores15 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:31 am
charlestonalum wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:39 am

And he does hit 3's and he typifies most Vanderbilt student athletes: not highly recruited but hard working and team- oriented making the most of potential vs vastly talented semi-pros. So get off his back: I respect him and his playing time.
He keeps the ball moving on offense. He doesn’t try to do things on his own. If he gets an open look he takes it. We’ve all see trey hit big shots

He’s shooting 30.8% from 3pt, nothing close to a shooting specialist. I respect Trey as well and he’s overcome the odds and seems to be an awesome dude. But teams making the tournament have much better players playing 20+ minutes.
He keeps the ball moving on offense. He doesn’t try to do things on his own. If he gets an open look he takes it. We’ve all seen trey hit big shots. He’s not exactly killing us just because he’s not hitting all of his threes. He’s not hurting us either. When some of the freshmen come in they want to take over and love every bad shot they take.
My opinion is that he brings the ball into the front court and picks up his dribble too often 35' from the basket. Quite honestly, Wright could do the exact same thing, as could Lewis. I appreciate wanting to find value, but we have two players on this roster that do more than what Thomas does at point - Manjon and Lewis. At best he is the 3rd best PG on the team, so that isn't why he would be playing (Manjon and Lewis combined for 40 minutes in the last game anyway - so that isn't the reason why Thomas was playing).

As has been noted multiple times, his offense, which is one dimensional and off-track is only one half of Thomas' value. The other half is in defense, where he doesn't rebound, doesn't create steals or blocks, is short, slight of build, and not particularly laterally quick, nor does he possess explosive jumping ability. In other words, he has none of the attributes a good defender should have physically. Now a lot of players get to play in spite of their defense - Tinsley, Ogilvy, etc, but they are typically amazing multi-dimensional players on offense, or are role players who are great shooters (Cage as a freshman, Gordon as a freshman, but don't see the court much). Red Gordon might be a pretty good comparison in terms of height - as a junior he was getting about 23 minutes per game but had a better assist rate, three point percentage, FT rate, steal rate, and ability to score inside, by pretty wide margins over Thomas. Besides that Gordon was a bulldog - physically very strong from playing football and tough as nails.

I guess maybe I'm mis-interpreting these replies - is the thought that Thomas is actually a good player and the best approach (for this year and next) is to give him the whatever minutes Manjon or Lawrence don't use at guard, or is it that Shelby is so raw and unready that CJS has no choice to play Thomas and that somehow our record would have been worse had we tried to give Shelby 10-15 mpg this season?
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