Random ruminations the morning after
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- AuricGoldfinger
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Random ruminations the morning after
In the aftermath of last night's debacle, there are both short-term and long-term implications for the team and the program.
In the short-term, I fully expect Vanderbilt to come out and play well Saturday against Ole Miss. This isn't a bad team on the order of this year's Louisville or 2019 Vanderbilt. They've beaten some decent squads and have competed in most games. They're not a good team, either, but they ran into a buzzsaw last night against a very talented team that is a terrible matchup for VU.
I also think Jerry Stackhouse will be back for season 5. After being given an extension in the off-season, it's become pretty clear he doesn't believe he's coaching for his job this year. There were lots of calls for his head last night on social media, but I believe he'll still be our coach in 2023-24.
Short-term, it is what it is and they are who they are. A flawed team that will likely finish a few games below .500 overall.
Long-term, what I saw last night worries me. The constant lineup shuffling is one thing, but sabotaging your chances of winning (intentionally or not) in order to prove a point or to use the starting lineup as some kind of chemistry lab this late in the season is just nuts. I still have yet to understand not starting the best players and being okay with falling behind almost immediately.
And I understand Stack's frustration with some of his players not buying into what he wants to do after (his words) "two to three years." I know he's an old school coach. And he has the right as coach to discipline his players however he wishes. But this is starting to look like Richard Schmidt 2.0, except that Richard Schmidt didn't have to worry about his roster completely turning over after the season and his every roster move being seen and dissected on social media. If they're not buying into your system after two or three years, whose fault is that?
Let me be clear--I'm not advocating for a laissez faire approach to coaching in the 21st century. As Daymeon Fishback said on the game broadcast last night, Stack wanted the team to hit rock bottom. They did. I just fail to see how this approach turns out well in this or any other season. If CJS wants to treat an SEC game like it's a Tuesday night matchup against the South Bay Lakers in the middle of a long G League season, there's a place for that.
We already know this team has a problem stopping the scoring runs of other teams and going on runs of its own, but we gave up the mother of all runs last night (43-7) without calling a single timeout. No, calling a timeout likely wouldn't have prevented last night's drubbing, but the only point of Stack's perverse unwillingness to do so seems only to serve the point of saying to the world, "Look how different I am! Everyone else is doing it wrong!"
As I stated in a post earlier this season, what I worry about going into next year is the potential for a double dip turnover rebuild--losing a significant amount of player experience without having much to show for it, and also losing a significant number of freshmen players to the portal, robbing the program of its ability to build for the future. These are strange times we live in, and I just don't see the blueprint for building a program. Many of you will say, "Trust the process, Stack knows what he's doing." It's just getting harder for me to see the destination we're headed.
Due to player free agency and declining television ratings, college basketball has become even more about brand. Next week, Vandy will officially break ground on a multimillion dollar basketball facility, and yet we are increasingly irrelevant as a program and a brand. Last night's game was about a month shy of the 20- year anniversary of getting destroyed by 62 at Rupp Arena. Yet between that night in Lexington and yesterday in Tuscaloosa, we've had some really good times. No, we've never been Kansas or UCLA, but we were considered a reliably good program for which postseason play of some kind was likely and we had an identity.
The year after getting blown out by 62 at Kentucky was Kevin Stallings' make or break season (which resulted in a Sweet 16 appearance). Next year will undoubtedly be Jerry Stackhouse's. What will that look like?
In the short-term, I fully expect Vanderbilt to come out and play well Saturday against Ole Miss. This isn't a bad team on the order of this year's Louisville or 2019 Vanderbilt. They've beaten some decent squads and have competed in most games. They're not a good team, either, but they ran into a buzzsaw last night against a very talented team that is a terrible matchup for VU.
I also think Jerry Stackhouse will be back for season 5. After being given an extension in the off-season, it's become pretty clear he doesn't believe he's coaching for his job this year. There were lots of calls for his head last night on social media, but I believe he'll still be our coach in 2023-24.
Short-term, it is what it is and they are who they are. A flawed team that will likely finish a few games below .500 overall.
Long-term, what I saw last night worries me. The constant lineup shuffling is one thing, but sabotaging your chances of winning (intentionally or not) in order to prove a point or to use the starting lineup as some kind of chemistry lab this late in the season is just nuts. I still have yet to understand not starting the best players and being okay with falling behind almost immediately.
And I understand Stack's frustration with some of his players not buying into what he wants to do after (his words) "two to three years." I know he's an old school coach. And he has the right as coach to discipline his players however he wishes. But this is starting to look like Richard Schmidt 2.0, except that Richard Schmidt didn't have to worry about his roster completely turning over after the season and his every roster move being seen and dissected on social media. If they're not buying into your system after two or three years, whose fault is that?
Let me be clear--I'm not advocating for a laissez faire approach to coaching in the 21st century. As Daymeon Fishback said on the game broadcast last night, Stack wanted the team to hit rock bottom. They did. I just fail to see how this approach turns out well in this or any other season. If CJS wants to treat an SEC game like it's a Tuesday night matchup against the South Bay Lakers in the middle of a long G League season, there's a place for that.
We already know this team has a problem stopping the scoring runs of other teams and going on runs of its own, but we gave up the mother of all runs last night (43-7) without calling a single timeout. No, calling a timeout likely wouldn't have prevented last night's drubbing, but the only point of Stack's perverse unwillingness to do so seems only to serve the point of saying to the world, "Look how different I am! Everyone else is doing it wrong!"
As I stated in a post earlier this season, what I worry about going into next year is the potential for a double dip turnover rebuild--losing a significant amount of player experience without having much to show for it, and also losing a significant number of freshmen players to the portal, robbing the program of its ability to build for the future. These are strange times we live in, and I just don't see the blueprint for building a program. Many of you will say, "Trust the process, Stack knows what he's doing." It's just getting harder for me to see the destination we're headed.
Due to player free agency and declining television ratings, college basketball has become even more about brand. Next week, Vandy will officially break ground on a multimillion dollar basketball facility, and yet we are increasingly irrelevant as a program and a brand. Last night's game was about a month shy of the 20- year anniversary of getting destroyed by 62 at Rupp Arena. Yet between that night in Lexington and yesterday in Tuscaloosa, we've had some really good times. No, we've never been Kansas or UCLA, but we were considered a reliably good program for which postseason play of some kind was likely and we had an identity.
The year after getting blown out by 62 at Kentucky was Kevin Stallings' make or break season (which resulted in a Sweet 16 appearance). Next year will undoubtedly be Jerry Stackhouse's. What will that look like?
Re: Random ruminations the morning after
Auric, I love your analysis, but losing Liam, Jordan and several more to the portal, Do you see this team being any better next year and making post season. If the answer is no, then it’s time to cut bait and find a real coach now. His legacy will be “below average coach - cost us the streak”.
- Versus75
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NET versus RPI
This is fairly random, so I'll just tag on here rather than start a new thread.
Overnight, Vanderbilt's RPI ranking improved from 81 to 79. We lost, but the loss was AT a high-ranking opponent. Just playing that game helps.
However, the NET ranking ballooned (in the wrong sense) from 91 to 107. As Jason and others have told us, Efficiency (relative score, perhaps) is a factor in the NET. Vanderbilt had gotten to the low 80s after the Georgia win. A couple losses to good teams hurt somewhat, but the 57-point setback was a killer.
Overnight, Vanderbilt's RPI ranking improved from 81 to 79. We lost, but the loss was AT a high-ranking opponent. Just playing that game helps.
However, the NET ranking ballooned (in the wrong sense) from 91 to 107. As Jason and others have told us, Efficiency (relative score, perhaps) is a factor in the NET. Vanderbilt had gotten to the low 80s after the Georgia win. A couple losses to good teams hurt somewhat, but the 57-point setback was a killer.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
I wonder about team morale, fan morale, student morale.
Last fall, Vanderbilt lost SEC football games by scores of 56-0, 55-0 and 55-3, and now they lose a BASKETBALL game by the score of 101-44.
I guess the words "pride" and "moral victory" don't enter into it anymore.
One feels for this crop of senior students, who will never get to see better than a 2-6 season in football or a NCAA tournament basketball team. Fortunately, as we have noted many times, Vanderbilt students aren't interested in sports!
Last fall, Vanderbilt lost SEC football games by scores of 56-0, 55-0 and 55-3, and now they lose a BASKETBALL game by the score of 101-44.
I guess the words "pride" and "moral victory" don't enter into it anymore.
One feels for this crop of senior students, who will never get to see better than a 2-6 season in football or a NCAA tournament basketball team. Fortunately, as we have noted many times, Vanderbilt students aren't interested in sports!
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
These are the sort of results that led Sewanee to leave the SEC.historybill wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:59 pm I wonder about team morale, fan morale, student morale.
Last fall, Vanderbilt lost SEC football games by scores of 56-0, 55-0 and 55-3, and now they lose a BASKETBALL game by the score of 101-44.
I guess the words "pride" and "moral victory" don't enter into it anymore.
One feels for this crop of senior students, who will never get to see better than a 2-6 season in football or a NCAA tournament basketball team. Fortunately, as we have noted many times, Vanderbilt students aren't interested in sports!
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
As for Stack "wanting the team to hit rock bottom," it felt as though he wanted me and everyone else in the fan base, what's left of it, to hit rock bottom.
I'd rather see our coach put forward his best effort to win every game, and not treat any of them as throwaways. Otherwise, a simple phone call to the AD, saying "I can't get this team ready to play," would suffice.
I'd rather see our coach put forward his best effort to win every game, and not treat any of them as throwaways. Otherwise, a simple phone call to the AD, saying "I can't get this team ready to play," would suffice.
Re: Random ruminations the morning after
I happened to run into Coach Stallings this morning. I stopped and asked him if watched the game. He laughed and said no but had seen the score. As Auric mentioned above, Stallings sarcastically said he was upset they didn’t lose by more than 62 since he owned that record. He also acknowledged how tough it’s become to win at a place like Vandy with the transfer portal and NIL. I’m hopeful we can retain the bulk of our freshman class and build a competitive team next year.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
Are you serious? This is almost too coincidental.Vandy6 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:35 pm I happened to run into Coach Stallings this morning. I stopped and asked him if watched the game. He laughed and said no but had seen the score. As Auric mentioned above, Stallings sarcastically said he was upset they didn’t lose by more than 62 since he owned that record. He also acknowledged how tough it’s become to win at a place like Vandy with the transfer portal and NIL. I’m hopeful we can retain the bulk of our freshman class and build a competitive team next year.
- charlestonalum
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
There you have it: it is "tough to win at Vanderbilt" and changing coaches has zero impact on that very plain fact. When we lost to Mo close at their place to a first year coach who had brought in players from schools we have never even heard of - that should have been apparent that other coaches have tools we do not. People can blame Stack and he clearly has faults that Auric has nicely listed, but tell me what coach doesn't. What the other league coaches have that we don't is easy admissions - our very fine, but losing WBB coach said it recently: Vanderbilt has restrictions that our competitors do not. We should all know that: we have seen it for so many years in FB and BB. I guarantee you that Stallings is absolutely right: "how togh it's become to win at a place like Vandy with the transfer portal and NIL." Heck, I hate being embarrassed like we often are, but I also know we will never change admissions - the faculty will not allow it whether the Chancellor wants to or not. Someday someone with enough time needs to look at all the 5 star athletes and see how many were not even approached by Vanderbilt because the academic profile would not permit it. Sure there are exceptions and Duke and Stanford get them. Remember our old alum, Grantland Rice " ...how you play the game." Long ago I resigned myself to being happy when we win and consoled with other things when we lose.Vandy6 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:35 pm I happened to run into Coach Stallings this morning. I stopped and asked him if watched the game. He laughed and said no but had seen the score. As Auric mentioned above, Stallings sarcastically said he was upset they didn’t lose by more than 62 since he owned that record. He also acknowledged how tough it’s become to win at a place like Vandy with the transfer portal and NIL. I’m hopeful we can retain the bulk of our freshman class and build a competitive team next year.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
NIL and the ease of transfer has made a joke of college basketball. Apparently the school we pull for is the punchline.
Something has to give. Transfers need to sit out a year and NIL needs to be monitored, somehow, someway. Someone royally effed up along the way.
I am just waiting on the IRS to come in one day and start wanting their piece of these newfound riches.
Something has to give. Transfers need to sit out a year and NIL needs to be monitored, somehow, someway. Someone royally effed up along the way.
I am just waiting on the IRS to come in one day and start wanting their piece of these newfound riches.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
And don't forget about the international semi-pro team to the east.VUaskew wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:16 pm NIL and the ease of transfer has made a joke of college basketball. Apparently the school we pull for is the punchline.
Something has to give. Transfers need to sit out a year and NIL needs to be monitored, somehow, someway. Someone royally effed up along the way.
I am just waiting on the IRS to come in one day and start wanting their piece of these newfound riches.
Maybe we should be getting more players from Uruguay, Helsinki Finland, Croatia, etc.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
Watched the post game presser this afternoon. I still like what Stack's selling and still think he can get it done. However...
I honestly don't get why guys on the team wouldn't be meeting his standard of effort etc nor do I understand why the freshmen on our team are having a harder time reaching SEC standards than a good number of frosh on other teams. I'm hoping that the freshman issue isn't simply that we have a second class in a row that looked better on paper than on the hardwood. On the first I really have no clue.
The CJS comments above about how increasingly hard it is for VU to recruit is concerning. At the same time Northwestern is having a banner year (for a change).
Auric's concern with next year is spot on. Expecting that we do not end the season on a long losing streak I have every expectation that the coach will be back. How we make up the guys graduating and any surprise loses and still make the NCAA will indeed be a very significant challenge. And i think getting into the NCAA's in year five for a coach is a must.
While not quite time to give up the ship, making note of the location of the life boats does seem appropriate.
I honestly don't get why guys on the team wouldn't be meeting his standard of effort etc nor do I understand why the freshmen on our team are having a harder time reaching SEC standards than a good number of frosh on other teams. I'm hoping that the freshman issue isn't simply that we have a second class in a row that looked better on paper than on the hardwood. On the first I really have no clue.
The CJS comments above about how increasingly hard it is for VU to recruit is concerning. At the same time Northwestern is having a banner year (for a change).
Auric's concern with next year is spot on. Expecting that we do not end the season on a long losing streak I have every expectation that the coach will be back. How we make up the guys graduating and any surprise loses and still make the NCAA will indeed be a very significant challenge. And i think getting into the NCAA's in year five for a coach is a must.
While not quite time to give up the ship, making note of the location of the life boats does seem appropriate.
- Foreverhopeful
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here and I will continue to support our coach and our student athletes. Last night was a disaster.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
True, but they weren't getting $55 mil/yr, set to increase to $100.
https://footballscoop.com/news/data-fir ... -of-decade
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
We can't hope for better than 49-66 (16-45)? Every VU coach but Drew & Schmidt have done better.Foreverhopeful wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:32 pm I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here...
Correction (after checking wikipedia):RICHARD SCHMIDT DID DO BETTER.He had an overall winning record. And he got fired after 2 seasons.
Last edited by Go Vandy! on Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
rock bottom? I thought we hit that when the streak was allowed to end without so much as a 3-point play attempted in the last 5 minutes of that game in our OWN gym against our #1 rival team (well, should be).VU1970 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:26 pm As for Stack "wanting the team to hit rock bottom," it felt as though he wanted me and everyone else in the fan base, what's left of it, to hit rock bottom.
I'd rather see our coach put forward his best effort to win every game, and not treat any of them as throwaways. Otherwise, a simple phone call to the AD, saying "I can't get this team ready to play," would suffice.
from this side of the tv, it looked like CJS abandoned his duties last night to the team, speaking of those who are "bought in" and tried to muster up an effort against a top team playing their best basketball. Calling a timeout to offer a few encouraging words, send in a play, or just temporarily slow the momentum of an unstoppable team would've been better than sitting with elbows on knees glaring at them.
I hope this team and coaches talks this out...the silent parent / move-on tactic won't yield sustainable results. There's so much potential...injuries deflated the momentum after AR...would be far worse to see self-inflicted damage finish the team off.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
Go Vandy! wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:50 pmWe can't hope for better than 49-66 (16-45)? Every VU coach but Drew & Schmidt have done better.Foreverhopeful wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:32 pm I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here...
Correction (after checking wikipedia):RICHARD SCHMIDT DID DO BETTER.He had an overall winning record. And he got fired after 2 seasons.
The Schmidt era was a time when the SEC only had 10 schools and some of them couldn't have cared less about basketball. One of the Schmidt years, only LSU and Kentucky were even ranked.
AND... his SEC record was still 14-22. He does not get a pass.
- Foreverhopeful
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
Correct- these are different times and a different level of SEC basketball play.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
What made me mad the most it did look like Stack didn't care....just sitting there and no timeouts. Now finding out he wanted to hit rock bottom...REALLY pisses me off! Getting paid millions!!!
"I have not yet begun to fight!" ....John Paul Jones
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after
I am with you, Foreveryhopeful: it is our team and our coach and I will support both as long as they are Vanderbilt. For people who want winning at any cost there are plenty of options... If Candace decides a new coach is needed, I would support that, too. I care about my Alma Mater above all else and the integrity that we have had in athletics and certainly academics. I will be forever hopeful, too.Foreverhopeful wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:32 pm I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here and I will continue to support our coach and our student athletes. Last night was a disaster.