Random ruminations the morning after

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Foreverhopeful
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Foreverhopeful »

I think Stack cares a lot. He just isn't going to be told what to do by a bunch of fans who don't see what goes on in practice. The players and their families. adore and respect him- I know that for a fact. I'm good with that.


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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by dore74 »

Forever,
The paradox here is if the families and players are good with the coach why is the team in an effort funk. Not being argumentative, I really don’t understand the disconnect.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Jason94 »

charlestonalum wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:37 am
Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:32 pm I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here and I will continue to support our coach and our student athletes. Last night was a disaster.
I am with you, Foreveryhopeful: it is our team and our coach and I will support both as long as they are Vanderbilt. For people who want winning at any cost there are plenty of options... If Candace decides a new coach is needed, I would support that, too. I care about my Alma Mater above all else and the integrity that we have had in athletics and certainly academics. I will be forever hopeful, too.
Those aren't the only choices though - winning at any cost or losing. How about winning the right way? Making the tournament every other year and occasionally getting past the 1st weekend seem like reasonably obtainable goals for a coach who has things together.

This year is very similar to year 4 of CKS, and back then the pitchfork brigade was in full force. Some felt (in hindsight, correctly) that CKS deserved another year to see if he could turn things around with his own players, but if he couldn't in year 5, it would have been correct to look for another coach. CJS is in a very similar position, but he has less in the positive column and more in the negative column, but it hasn't been the complete collapse that CBD had, so I'm good with him having a make or break year to show he can succeed. What is interesting is that the calls for his head are much less despite less to show for his time here, which is a sign of an apathetic (and shrinking) fan base.

I will say that he has to figure out how to prevent a full collapse this season - the Bama win had signs of giving up and he has to make sure it doesn't happen again. He will likely have to swallow his pride a bit and admit that he needs to soften his style a bit, similar to CKS. I am hopeful he stabilizes things after the Bama debacle and is able to make the tournament next year. I'm not looking forward to yet another coaching search.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by dore74 »

Hustler column raises the temp a good bit as well...
https://vanderbilthustler.com/2023/02/0 ... -to-worse/
Saturday is indeed going to be a big, big game for us.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by buffy »

Stack needs to go sit in Coach Lea's office and discuss how he and Barton are building a roster. Coach Lea understands the challenge. Coach Stack does not. You have to recruit the right kind of person, not just the right set of skills and talent. That's not to diminish our current players. That's to highlight the lack of continuity and focus of a roster.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Foreverhopeful »

Football loses a lot of players each year, too. It's just more obvious with basketball since there are fewer on the team, by far.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by OldDude »

Good post , Jason, especially the reference to a shrinking fan base. My tickets are in row 3 , 2F. for years it was reasonably full of a core of season ticket holders. This year we have been surrounded by visitors as many of those long time fans have not renewed ( would guess that most of them were between age 40 to 55). While a few of the old farts remain , the younger group has thinned out a lot.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by GoVU »

I will not renew my basketball tickets next year if nothing changes, and I have been a season ticket holder for 27 years. I sit in Sec D, and I am so tired of being surrounded by TN fans, KY fans, AL fans, etc.

It used to be my favorite thing to do, it just been too frustrating the last 7 years.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by AuricGoldfinger »

Foreverhopeful wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:32 pm I don't think any other coach is going to do any better here...
Foreverhopeful, I've heard this expressed from time to time about various coaches (football and basketball) during my VU fandom, and I am legitimately curious as to why you feel this way. I'm not trying to be argumentative.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by AuricGoldfinger »

Jason94 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 am
This year is very similar to year 4 of CKS, and back then the pitchfork brigade was in full force. Some felt (in hindsight, correctly) that CKS deserved another year to see if he could turn things around with his own players, but if he couldn't in year 5, it would have been correct to look for another coach. CJS is in a very similar position, but he has less in the positive column and more in the negative column, but it hasn't been the complete collapse that CBD had, so I'm good with him having a make or break year to show he can succeed. What is interesting is that the calls for his head are much less despite less to show for his time here, which is a sign of an apathetic (and shrinking) fan base.
And as you already know, Jason, the one thing CKS had going for him into that Year 5 was that we knew he would have a ton of experience on the roster in 2003-04: Freije, Hundley, Lakey, Holwerda, and Smith had all logged significant minutes as sophomores and juniors. If it wasn't going to happen in Year 5, it was never going to happen.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by VandyManners »

I do believe the right guy could come in here and recruit the best "Vandy eligible" talent in the country. I also believe with the right system of x's and o's with these top players we could achieve what I believe most Vandy fans want...relevance. We want to be a team that is tough and can make the Tourney most years. An occasional sweet 16, or maybe our first Final Four. Could someone that is like a Mark Few, Tom Izzo, or Tony Bennett come in here and recruit this type of player and win? I believe the answer is yes. It really is about the guy that is in the captain's chair. James Franklin was able to bring in players and coach them up to new heights at Vandy. Coach Prime is making a splash in recruiting at Colorado. The guy in the chair matters. Can Stack be that guy? I do not know if he can or not, but for now, he is our coach, and I will support him and the program while I cheer for our young men. The academic standard issue will never go away, that is why we need someone special. Standing around complaining about the problem will not solve the problem. We need to find a way to fix it, and I believe the right guy can fix it. Stack will enter year 5 next season, and 5 years is plenty of time to rebuild a program into a winner. Next year will be crucial if he is to remain our head coach.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by baseball1234 »

Serious question. I never really followed the NBA. Has CJS ever been associated with a losing team or losing franchise? I am not referring to one year, I mean in a "loser" sense like the Knicks. Is he spoiled to where he does not know how to handle an adverse situation?
I am still rooting for him because I believe that he wants to win. Just not sure that he has the make-up to get us right.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Doreknox »

baseball1234 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:32 pm I am still rooting for him because I believe that he wants to win. Just not sure that he has the make-up to get us right.
All coaches want to win. We want all our coaches to win. I'm sure Derek Mason wanted to win but he wasn't the right guy for our HC job.

CJS has had a losing record in two of his three years at VU and may have another in 2022-23. He should be able to handle losing by now.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Go Vandy! »

Nobody thought FB would do any better. Until CJF. Yeah, i know he left, and most Vandy fans want to explain away the 24 Ws in 3 years. "Oh the SEC was down." "It was a fluke." "We're mad at him because of the way he left." You know how many of those footnotes are in the record books? NONE. Most of the anger at Franklin is because he proved it can be done, so the excuse that "our players are so much smarter than other SEC schools" we justify losing records 40+ of the last 50 years.

I will never understand the mindset of: we want to keep the 3rd worst coach in VU MBB history and not even take a chance someone could do better.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by fldore »

While I agree NIL and player free agency has made the landscape much different. And will make things harder for schools like Vandy. But of all the sports I have less sympathy for basketball. And mostly because it takes so few players to be a tourney caliber level team. A football team needs to hit on a number of players across a number of positions all while trying to make sure they don't get poached. But with basketball, if you have one or two really solid players and then a bunch of guys who play hard/tough and hustle, you can be a tournament level team. And across the entire country, it shouldnt be that hard to recruit two or three guys each year that want to come here for the right reasons. We'll always likely be one of those teams that has ups and downs and maybe you have a string of recruits where you don't develop a top line player and fight for NIT bids each year and then you have a run of recruiting where you hit on a few guys who develop into top line starters and you are an annual tourney team for a stretch.

Anyways, I've written my critiques of Stackhouse a number of times since he was hired. I'll let the season play out. I'm sure he'll be back next year. Hopefully he can turn things around next year although I'd be perfectly happy to move on after this season. I just don't have the same patience with basketball that others do. I think the turn around should be quicker and of all the sports this should be the one that is easiest to keep consistently good.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by Jason94 »

AuricGoldfinger wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:55 pm
Jason94 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 am
This year is very similar to year 4 of CKS, and back then the pitchfork brigade was in full force. Some felt (in hindsight, correctly) that CKS deserved another year to see if he could turn things around with his own players, but if he couldn't in year 5, it would have been correct to look for another coach. CJS is in a very similar position, but he has less in the positive column and more in the negative column, but it hasn't been the complete collapse that CBD had, so I'm good with him having a make or break year to show he can succeed. What is interesting is that the calls for his head are much less despite less to show for his time here, which is a sign of an apathetic (and shrinking) fan base.
And as you already know, Jason, the one thing CKS had going for him into that Year 5 was that we knew he would have a ton of experience on the roster in 2003-04: Freije, Hundley, Lakey, Holwerda, and Smith had all logged significant minutes as sophomores and juniors. If it wasn't going to happen in Year 5, it was never going to happen.
100% agree - which is why I thought at the time that he should get another seasson. To a lesser extent, CJS COULD have a relatively loaded roster returning, though I think he should have been more consistent in playing his freshmen and settled into a rotation of Manjon, Lawrence, Wright, Stute and Robbins with Lewis, Shelby, Dort Smith and Dia getting consistent minutes off the bench.

Quite obviously - the freshmen class has been either tremendously overrated, or CJS has done a very poor job of getting them playing time. Over the last 20 seasons every good recruiting class we've had (and we've had about 1 per 4 seasons) has produced a freshman who logs starter minutes and averages around double figures, looking like a future 1st or 2nd team SEC player. In 2001 it was Freije, 2005 it was Foster - 2009 we had both Taylor and Tinsley, 2014 was Jones, 2015 was Baldwin and LaChacne. I'm leaving out 2008 and 2010 as Ogilvy and Jenkins were great as freshmen but part of a small class that wasn't ranked that highly overall. In many of those instances, the player listed was averaging about 15 ppg as a sophomore. I don't see any of the freshmen getting to double digits next year without a complete and drastic change in their playing time and approach to their offense (both by the player and the design of the offense). In every instance (except for Dort and possibly Lewis who hasn't played much) our freshmen are essentially jump shooting three point specialists who aren't that accurate. More concerning is the lack of ability to score inside the arc by Smith, Dia and Shelby. Smith is 7-22 inside the arc, Dia is 6-23 and Shelby is 1-4. Dia is 6'-9", 240 and is barely making 1 of 4 of his shots inside the arc. Dort is the lone exception so of course he has played the least number of minutes.

I've stated that we have enough talent on the team, but the utilization of that talent is substandard IMO. Dort to me is a future star, and a player that has pro potential - Great size and athleticism though he is raw, but not any more raw than Damian Jones was (Jones was a little more gangly and perhaps more athletic, but Dort is a physical beast). With the right roster management there should be enough there to take a run at the tournament assuming we don't treat the preconference schedule like it doesn't matter and are intentional about bringing players along.
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Re: Random ruminations the morning after

Post by utahozzie »

Doreknox wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:02 pm
baseball1234 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:32 pm I am still rooting for him because I believe that he wants to win. Just not sure that he has the make-up to get us right.
All coaches want to win. We want all our coaches to win. I'm sure Derek Mason wanted to win but he wasn't the right guy for our HC job.

CJS has had a losing record in two of his three years at VU and may have another in 2022-23. He should be able to handle losing by now.
Jerry is light years better than Derek Mason
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