How Much Longer

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geeznotagain
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by geeznotagain »

Buffy, that is a thoughtful, well-written post with specifics. Not just a "CJS sucks because he doesn't start the right lineup and won't call timeouts" post.


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Re: How Much Longer

Post by Jason94 »

buffy wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:55 am Stack is a smart guy. He clearly knows the game, but unfortunately he's seen the world through NBA glasses. He simply discounted the difficulty in recruiting a roster like he wanted to Vanderbilt. Take Texas for instance, they also don't have a bunch of shooters, but they can hammer you into the ground defensively with athletes. CJS has spent 4 years thinking he could do that at Vanderbilt. And if he was a stud recruiter coming out the gate, maybe we have that. But that didn't happen. And now, just like CBD, he doesn't have a backup plan. He's just trying to do the best he can with the bed he made. If after two recruiting cycles, he would have figured out this reality, he could have started to shape a ballhandler / long shooter heavy roster to try to outscore opponents, ala CKS. My question is, where the heck were his mentors on the front end when he was taking a college job. My gut says there was a lot of arrogance on CJS' part of how things were gonna go down.

Like most of you, I'd give him this next year. I still don't think he gets it. Look at this. Here's what he had to say about our most recent class of signees:

Isaiah West: 6’2”, 190 lbs., Guard - "We are excited about the versatility, toughness and athleticism he will bring to our perimeter group"
NEED: I need a guy that can absolutely handle the rock, see the floor and move his feet. Isaiah may be that, but being athletic doesn't mean you can move laterally. Being tough is awesome, but only when it means he can keep his handle or push through a screen.

Carter Land: 6’9”, 245 lbs., Forward - "his passing and ball-handling skills for his position are a great fit for our style of play"
NEED: His passing and ball-handling could be the cherry on top, but can the big man impact a dribble drive and get boards? If not, what are we doing?

JaQualon “JQ” Roberts: 6’8”, 210 lbs., Forward - "He has athleticism, skill and the positional size to allow him to play both inside and out"
NEED: I need him to be able to fill it up from three. I don't need athleticism. I need buckets from three. Athleticism and length are a bonus.

It sounds like he's still trying to put together an athletic squad to defend his way to greatness. Except, these are probably middle of the road athletes.
I don't know what is going on - On one hand I think you are correct, but on the other hand his teams play offense as though they were built like some of CKS' least athletic shooting teams. For instance, the 2005 team was the high water mark for CKS in terms of 3pt attempt % at 45% of all shot from the floor being three point shots. This made sense because we had lost Freije and was starting Dawid who was a great three point shooter at center. We also had Moore, Foster, Cage, Gordon, and Smith, all of whom were good three point shooters.

CJS' teams have surpassed his percentage in two of his four seasons here, and are attempting a full 42% of all shots from behind the arc this season. Of the players who are averaging at least 2 attempts per game played, only Stute is above 32% from three. Lawrence is shooting 25.5% and Wright is at 29.6%. Shelby is at 30.2% and Thomas is shooting 31.3%. Smith is the 2nd best volume three point shooter on the team at 32.6%. Those 5 players are shooting 30% on 310 attempts.

To some extent is offensive style seems to suggest that he realizes that he hasn't recruited the type of athletes needed to succeed in SEC play. But his recruiting hasn't adjusted to the thinking that he likely won't be able to get enough athletes to hang with the UT's of the conference, so we are left in their weird situation akin to playing option QB's in a pro style offense.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by buffy »

Jason94 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:10 pm I don't know what is going on - On one hand I think you are correct, but on the other hand his teams play offense as though they were built like some of CKS' least athletic shooting teams. For instance, the 2005 team was the high water mark for CKS in terms of 3pt attempt % at 45% of all shot from the floor being three point shots....CJS' teams have surpassed his percentage in two of his four seasons here, and are attempting a full 42% of all shots from behind the arc this season. Of the players who are averaging at least 2 attempts per game played, only Stute is above 32% from three. Lawrence is shooting 25.5% and Wright is at 29.6%. Shelby is at 30.2% and Thomas is shooting 31.3%. Smith is the 2nd best volume three point shooter on the team at 32.6%. Those 5 players are shooting 30% on 310 attempts.
Yep, but like you point out, those 'least athletic teams' could shoot the rock.

I would have recruited 2 real guards and 1 real shooter. Then see what happens with the transfer portal to add another long shooter. If on signing day, in the fall, I would have heard that XYZ player can shoot the freaking lights out, then we could be hopeful. But outside of Stute and Thomas, he hasn't recruited that skill set. Stute fits the bill of a long shooter, but because he's the only one, it makes it easy for teams to cheat up. Last year, we had SPJ spreading that attention out. We need 4 shooters in the program. 6 real guards in the program and 3 real bigs in the program. Maybe one or two of the young guys will turn out to be shooters.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by VandyManners »

I am rooting for Stack, but I honestly do not think he is the guy based on everything I have seen these last couple of years. I hope and want him to become the guy that we all hoped he would.

That said...

If something does happen and we are looking for a new coach, who is out there that would come to Vandy and do all these things we keep talking about? Recruit at a high level, develop players in a system that can win, and maintain a roster that meets our high academic standards. I think this is what the issue continues to be, finding a unicorn coach that can do all these things at Vanderbilt. It's easy when Kentucky or Kansas needs a coach to find a superstar, but Vandy will have to get lucky like we did with Jimmy Frank. I remember when Franklin got hired, I was like "who?" A coordinator from Maryland, you must be crazy...But he came out swinging with swag and attitude and he sold Vandy and found success. That is what we need, a Dawg to come in here and get after it.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by MrMemorial »

MrMemorial wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:46 pm
A32Win wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:19 pm Nate Oates was the head coach for the University of Buffalo before he came to Alabama. His Buffalo team soundly beat 4-seed Arizona in the NCAA tournament before Ala hired him. Kevin Stallings and Eddie Fogler both had success coaching at a smaller conference school before their hires.

Maybe we should try to do it again.
Rob Senderoff (age 49) is one to keep on eye on... except he got a 2 year show-cause under Kelvin Sampson while an assistant at Indiana 16 years ago. He's been squeaky clean ever since...to my knowledge. His record as a mid-major head coach is 237–144 (.622) at a school not known for basketball. Or sports. His team did beat ours the night Garland got injured.

Dusty May at FAU. (age? not sure? Might be around 45-ish?) Current record is 21-1, ranked #19 in the nation. May was retained as an assistant at Louisiana Tech when Mike White took over the program entering the 2011-12 season, and the Bulldogs won three straight conference championships – the Western Athletic Conference title in 2013 and C-USA crowns in 2014 and 2015.

May served six seasons (2009-15) as assistant coach and associate head coach at Louisiana Tech. In his final season with the Bulldogs, the team went 27-9, including 15-3 in C-USA to win the regular season championship by two games, and went 17-0 on its home court. LA Tech won 49 of 50 home games from February 2012 through the end of the 2014-15 season.

Patrick Kelsey (age 47) is the current head men's basketball coach at the College of Charleston. Record 38–17 at CofC (.691) and was an associate head coach at Wake. Also 186–95 (.662) as HC at Winthrop.
UPDATE: In a battle between 8-1 teams tied for first in the MAC, tonight Senderoff was beaten by Akron. Akron's coach is former Illinois head coach John Groce (age 51) closing in on 300 wins as a D-1 coach. If Akron makes the big dance, Groce will be a name mentioned in connection with big openings. Maybe.
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Re: How Much Longer

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A32Win wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:19 pm Nate Oates was the head coach for the University of Buffalo before he came to Alabama. His Buffalo team soundly beat 4-seed Arizona in the NCAA tournament before Ala hired him. Kevin Stallings and Eddie Fogler both had success coaching at a smaller conference school before their hires.

Maybe we should try to do it again.
Sure. We should try once again to hire a guy who has recently been head coach at a lower-tier Division I program. The last time we did that, we plucked a guy who won 30 games and went to the NIT championship with a Horizon League team. You know the rest: He washed out with the Commodores.

Not saying that would not be an option if Vanderbilt is looking for a new coach, but I think all this speculation is ridiculous. WE HAVE A COACH! Let's support Stack and the team and hope for the best.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by GoVU »

Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what saved Stallings during one of those low points was he had a great recruiting class signed (Jeff Taylor, Tinsley, Ghilbourne, Festus, and Tchiengang, pardon the spelling). It was fun watching those guys develop even as we were losing. The slow improvement was great to watch.

Stack’s recruits on the way appear to be good, but not program changing. The current freshman need to play more if he thinks we have “scheduled losses” coming up. I would hate to lose them all to the portal in March.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by geeznotagain »

Versus75 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:11 pm WE HAVE A COACH! [/b]Let's support Stack and the team and hope for the best.
That sounds a bit like my golf game strategy:

1. Trust your swing.
2. Hit and hope for the best.


It rarely worked.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by Nashmann »

Used to be we try to win every game....now it is "scheduled losses". How sad. I'm not mad that we lost to Bama....Lord only knows most are used to losses.....it is how we lost. Stack planned the loss and sat there doing nothing to "prove a point". What he did was embarrass the team and school! I am sure this will help recruit top players!!
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by Doreknox »

Versus75 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:11 pm
A32Win wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:19 pm Nate Oates was the head coach for the University of Buffalo before he came to Alabama. His Buffalo team soundly beat 4-seed Arizona in the NCAA tournament before Ala hired him. Kevin Stallings and Eddie Fogler both had success coaching at a smaller conference school before their hires.

Maybe we should try to do it again.
Sure. We should try once again to hire a guy who has recently been head coach at a lower-tier Division I program. The last time we did that, we plucked a guy who won 30 games and went to the NIT championship with a Horizon League team. You know the rest: He washed out with the Commodores.

Not saying that would not be an option if Vanderbilt is looking for a new coach, but I think all this speculation is ridiculous. WE HAVE A COACH! Let's support Stack and the team and hope for the best.
A lot of basketball programs in the SEC have made hiring mistakes. UT made several in a row before Pearl. You don't keep an underachieving coach because you might hire a bad one to replace him - that kind of thinking is organizational suicide. We hired two bad ones in a row, but I think that won't happen again. Based on the hires of Lea and Ralph, I think our AD and Chancellor are better candidate evaluators than their predecessors.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by Go Vandy! »

Versus75 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:11 pmWE HAVE A COACH! Let's support Stack and the team and hope for the best.
HAVE FUN! Expect to win.
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Re: How Much Longer

Post by charlestonalum »

The nicest thing about this win was Ty having a double double and in the post game interview (Ty says: "I lost my father a couple of years ago and I need Coach to hold me accountable" - speaks volumes to me.) Point is the players seem to respond and not resent the coach and his discipline. This has long term consequences.
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Re: How Much Longer

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charlestonalum wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:20 pm The nicest thing about this win was Ty having a double double and in the post game interview (Ty says: "I lost my father a couple of years ago and I need Coach to hold me accountable" - speaks volumes to me.) Point is the players seem to respond and not resent the coach and his discipline. This has long term consequences.
It works great with older players and those who do not suffer the delusion that they can be great without hard work. "I'm not oozing with talent so I'll have to work my butt off" is a profile that flourishes under Stackhouse.

Younger more gifted players who have been repeatedly told they're automatic NBA lottery picks by a fawning entourage, not so much.

I think Stack's style is a poor fit for recruiting and for developing talented underclassmen who still need to learn about hard work. Sure you want to recruit character and not prima donnas, but any 4 or 5 star 18 year old basketball playet is going to have at least some growing up to do.
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