CJS is something like CKS 2.0

For discussion of Vanderbilt Commodores men's basketball games and recruiting.

Moderators: kerrigjl, BrentVU, jfgogold, NateSY, KarenYates, Vandyman74, roanoke, VandyWhit

Jason94
Admiral
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:15 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 56 times

CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by Jason94 »

Is say that not that he is the same type of coach, or has the same types of strengths or weaknesses, but because he appears to be a good coach but not a great one, and given the hole he started in (partially due to his predecessor and partially due to his missteps) he will not be perceived 100% positively even should he turn the corner unless there is some magical final four run that seems rather unlikely at the moment.

CJS certainly took over a worse situation than CKS did, but also did himself no favors in the management of the roster or in recruiting his first three seasons. While he had Pippen and Disu committed and did a good job of holding onto them through the coaching transition, his spring adds were Jankovic, Wright, QMB and Harvey, and hit only on two of them, neither of them stars. The following season he brought in Lawrence, McBride, Stute, Odisupe and Thomas. Stute has developed into a decent scoring option who can do a little bit of defense, while Thomas is purely a three point specialist, and is really stretched in any role that requires him to handle the ball. Lawrence looks like a decent athlete who has real issues shooting the ball while the other two bailed after a season. This year he has brought in Chatman, Robbins, Frank and Mann along with Dezonie, Daniels and Dorsey. Mann plays with a lot of energy as an undersized post, Dezonie plays a little out of control but seems to have decent touch on his shot, while Dorsey has really looked lost in his limited minutes while Daniels left the team after just 3 games. Chatman and Robbins haven't really played much at all this season.

So out of the first three classes he has had that encompass 18 players he has come up with 1 star in Pippen, 1 borderline star in Disu (who transferred), a solid starter in Wright, two 4th or 5th option starters in Stute and QMB, and a couple of role players (Thomas and Mann). The rest have simply not cut it as the SEC level, been injured, quit on the team/coach, or some combination of those things. This isn't insurmountable, but does have the effect of placing CJS in a pretty deep hole. We had a poster from years ago that would point out that CKS' record hovered around .500 in SEC play, and therefore he was unacceptable. This was of course due to the hole that CKS dug himself into during the first four years of his career that he was never completely able to get out of. The same will be true of CJS - he could go on to have 5 winning seasons in a row and at best his overall SEC record will be around .500, and some fans would point to this as a reason why he had failed. For instance, it took Scott Drew from 2004 until 2021 to get his conference record above .500.

I have no idea how things will turn out - if CJS can figure out how to manage his roster and slow the turnover a bit, he probably gets things turned around. I'm not sure what his ceiling is, but my guess it is somewhere around where CKS had the program and while that was not good enough for a small minority on this board, it would be good enough for me, and probably most on here.


User avatar
GoVU
Lieutenant
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:05 am

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by GoVU »

I like your optimism, but the five starters you mentioned out of 18 potentials are on track to finish 12th in the conference. I expect 6 in the transfer portal after this season. Unless these 4 recruits coming in next year are awesome, things may not be much better next year.

We need to be a bubble team next year or we need to consider making a change. 8-32 is his SEC record with at least 8 more losses coming. I’m pulling for him but I hope his legacy is not a bad record and losing “the streak”
Gambit
Ensign
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:32 am

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by Gambit »

I’m not sure he will be judged by his overall conference record. If he doesn’t produce a winning SEC record in the next couple of years, I think his seat will be hot. But if the trajectory is right, and the recruiting looks good, his overall record will (and should) be explained by the absolute mess CBD left him, plus the unprecedented level of bad luck injuries he’s endured. I like Stack and hope he stays, and I’m kinda glad to see him imparting a little tough love to SJP the past couple of games.SJP needs to play more for the name on the front of the jersey than the back of it.
Steelcitydore
Seaman
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:25 pm

comparison of van Breda Kolff to Stackhouse

Post by Steelcitydore »

Interesting observation...I remember a lot of the complaints about Coach Jan van Breda Kolff back in the 1990's. A poster responded back then by saying he really wasn't a terrible coach, he was just mediocre. I was thinking the other day that not every Tom Dick and Harry coaches at Pepperdine, as he went on to do. Obviously none of us are pleased with where we are, but I also think we have to "walk" before we can "run." Some of van Breda Kolff's better teams would be a huge step from where we are now. I think of the NIT runner up team his first year, even with Fogler recruits, as well as the 1997 NCAA team losing in first round to Xavier. As far as Stackhouse's future, it's tough to balance between setting the bar too high or too low. I wonder how we would define "success" this year...consider how much we've struggled, I would be happy with a winning season this year. If we make the NIT in the next year or two, Stackhouse could have some promise. Interesting to think about the ways our standards have changed over the years.
User avatar
cjdore
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 10024
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:13 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by cjdore »

I would argue that CJS must recruit EVERY year like he did last year or better. The biggest complaint I always had with CKS is he could not recruit the local stars who would go to UNC , UK, etc, etc. CBD ended that with his recruiting efforts but proved he was not much of a coach to coach the kids up. I think CKS biggest talent was on court coaching.
MrMemorial
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: comparison of van Breda Kolff to Stackhouse

Post by MrMemorial »

Steelcitydore wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:41 pm Interesting observation...I remember a lot of the complaints about Coach Jan van Breda Kolff back in the 1990's. A poster responded back then by saying he really wasn't a terrible coach, he was just mediocre. I was thinking the other day that not every Tom Dick and Harry coaches at Pepperdine, as he went on to do. Obviously none of us are pleased with where we are, but I also think we have to "walk" before we can "run." Some of van Breda Kolff's better teams would be a huge step from where we are now. I think of the NIT runner up team his first year, even with Fogler recruits, as well as the 1997 NCAA team losing in first round to Xavier. As far as Stackhouse's future, it's tough to balance between setting the bar too high or too low. I wonder how we would define "success" this year...consider how much we've struggled, I would be happy with a winning season this year. If we make the NIT in the next year or two, Stackhouse could have some promise. Interesting to think about the ways our standards have changed over the years.
VBK's longest losing skid in 6 years was 4 games. And some people cried a river when the guy who lost 20 in a row got a pink slip. Something is very very wrong with this picture.
Jason94
Admiral
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:15 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: comparison of van Breda Kolff to Stackhouse

Post by Jason94 »

Steelcitydore wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:41 pm Interesting observation...I remember a lot of the complaints about Coach Jan van Breda Kolff back in the 1990's. A poster responded back then by saying he really wasn't a terrible coach, he was just mediocre. I was thinking the other day that not every Tom Dick and Harry coaches at Pepperdine, as he went on to do. Obviously none of us are pleased with where we are, but I also think we have to "walk" before we can "run." Some of van Breda Kolff's better teams would be a huge step from where we are now. I think of the NIT runner up team his first year, even with Fogler recruits, as well as the 1997 NCAA team losing in first round to Xavier. As far as Stackhouse's future, it's tough to balance between setting the bar too high or too low. I wonder how we would define "success" this year...consider how much we've struggled, I would be happy with a winning season this year. If we make the NIT in the next year or two, Stackhouse could have some promise. Interesting to think about the ways our standards have changed over the years.
Yeah, to have that level of mediocre these days. I'd suggest that it was the general sense that we had what we had - perhaps we might get to the tournament every once in a while, but we were not going to beat UK anytime soon nor ever really beat any good teams. To be fair to CJS, CVBK inherited the opposite situation - he had a team loaded with talent and underachieved with it. CJS inherited a dumpster fire. That is probably why CVBK is looked on the way he was - he wasn't objectively horrible, but he took a program that had a ton of momentum and in six years had eliminated any sense of it. To take a team that had gone 14-2, made the sweet 15 and had the returning NPOY as well as McMahan, Seckar, Hall, Evans, Lawson and miss the tournament with it was pretty bad - we even went into the SEC tournament with a chance and lost in the 1st round to a 3-13 Auburn team by 25! That is a hole that he tried to dig himself out of, and almost did in 97, but lost soundly in the first round of the tournament and followed it up by missing the tournament and then lost all momentum he had built in 99.
Steelcitydore
Seaman
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:25 pm

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by Steelcitydore »

Definitely point well taken...Jan inherited much more talent. I remember someone mentioning that McCaffrey didn't have Anglin and Elder to set screens for him, but even then something else was off. i remember Billy Mac bricking two free throws at a crucial ending in a Georgia Tech game. I don't know what it was about Jan's era that just wasn't quite what we needed, but a step toward those days in terms of wins and losses would be a huge step from where we are now.

Jan van Breda Kolff did have one the coolest names in all or sports. I remember when ESPN did a funny article about the coolest names in the NCAA and "Festus Ezeli" made the list. Would Jan have gotten the job if he was "Bill Green"? Someone said Steve Tchiengang would get less fouls if he changed his name to Steve Flowers. "Ted Skuchas" sounds like a foul-prone player too. Sorry to digress, but I have to find joy somehow amid this less than stellar time with both the pandemic and some down seasons. :-)
User avatar
charlestonalum
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 13165
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:37 am
Location: Charleston, SC
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by charlestonalum »

To be fair to Stack, he was picked with zero college coaching experience and actually only 2 years of college playing. That, sports fans, is the definition of a steep learning curve to ascend. Throw in that he is not at any college some of which resemble the NBA, except the players have to be recruited not drafted, and there is the additional height of the learning curve - Vanderbilt isn't Auburn. So all of us experts on Vanderbilt basketball should acknowledge that Stack has had a lot to learn and it appears he is, but he came in with some significant disadvantages to overcome other than just what was left here from his predecessor.

I am still hoping for success.
User avatar
Doreknox
Admiral
Posts: 6969
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:17 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by Doreknox »

Not really. Stack doesn't run a real offense and he can't game coach to save his life.

The fact remains that we hired a basketball coach who hadn't coached a college game.
Last edited by Doreknox on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
MrMemorial
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by MrMemorial »

Coach .000 coached lots of college ball and look how that ended up.
User avatar
charlestonalum
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 13165
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:37 am
Location: Charleston, SC
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by charlestonalum »

MrMemorial wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:00 pm Coach .000 coached lots of college ball and look how that ended up.
My point in comparing Stack to anyone is that he has had to learn all about the college game as well as how to be a head coach: it is a most steep learning curve he is on.
MrMemorial
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by MrMemorial »

Doreknox wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:08 pm Stack doesn't run a real offense
Unless you count the real offense he runs. When the players bother to run it.

https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/ ... plays.html

^ ^ See the second example. Looks familiar. Like how Stute gets open for threes in the corner.
alathIN
Rear Admiral
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:35 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by alathIN »

Another Stack and CKS comparison:
In the lead up to CKS's ouster, a widespread impression was that his old school hard work and discipline persona was not appealing to the younger generation he was recruiting.
Stack himself was a very hardworking player and he seems to have no tolerance for entitlement or laziness. He's benched younger more talented players and started walk-ons who demonstrated hard work and discipline.
His personal style is more updated that CKS, but I am getting the impression that he may have the same hard-nosed old fashioned edge - and I'm wondering if he may have similar problems recruiting prima donnas who have gotten accustomed to endless praise and special privileges ever since they showed talent with a basketball.
cc11316
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:26 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by cc11316 »

I find it kind of a bizarre comparison as there are stark differences in their coaching styles, experience and results. I'm not sure what some people remember about CKS other than he was a bit standoffish sometimes but he was a pretty good coach.

CKS was 332-220 in 17 seasons including 7 NCAA tournament appearances and 1 SEC tournament championship. He had just 3 losing seasons and 2 of those seasons were just one game under .500. Let's not forget that his teams played more challenging pre-season schedules and would typically have at least one marquee opponent.

By comparison CJS is headed for his 3rd straight losing season since his tenure started and next year may not be any better. He is 30-46 so far with a difficult SEC stretch remaining and I guess his marquee opponents this season would be Loyola-Chicago or SMU - not really like the old days. I hope things get better and there have been some pretty impressive recruits (on paper) but we'll see how things go.
alathIN
Rear Admiral
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:35 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: CJS is something like CKS 2.0

Post by alathIN »

cc11316 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:18 pm I find it kind of a bizarre comparison as there are stark differences in their coaching styles, experience and results. I'm not sure what some people remember about CKS other than he was a bit standoffish sometimes but he was a pretty good coach.

CKS was 332-220 in 17 seasons including 7 NCAA tournament appearances and 1 SEC tournament championship. He had just 3 losing seasons and 2 of those seasons were just one game under .500. Let's not forget that his teams played more challenging pre-season schedules and would typically have at least one marquee opponent.

By comparison CJS is headed for his 3rd straight losing season since his tenure started and next year may not be any better. He is 30-46 so far with a difficult SEC stretch remaining and I guess his marquee opponents this season would be Loyola-Chicago or SMU - not really like the old days. I hope things get better and there have been some pretty impressive recruits (on paper) but we'll see how things go.
That's all true, but CKS did not take over a program that was in the absolute bottom of the well, either.
JBK left the team in much better shape than Coach O-fer did.

However your general point stands - everyone was so eager to get rid of CKS because we were a perennial bubble team, first round out, occasionally advancing.
That looks like an aspirational goal from where we are now.
Locked Previous topicNext topic