SMU Game Thoughts

For discussion of Vanderbilt Commodores men's basketball games and recruiting.

Moderators: kerrigjl, BrentVU, jfgogold, NateSY, KarenYates, Vandyman74, roanoke, VandyWhit

User avatar
Dr. William Dudley
Seaman
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:07 pm

SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Dr. William Dudley »

I don't post much, but was at the game tonight behind the Vandy bench and felt obligated to share my (admittedly, non-expert) thoughts about the game.

Vandy fans represented really well at this game. Admittedly, there weren't many people at the game overall (Saturday night and CFB Conf Championships), but there was a decently good amount of Vandy support present. And, it was my first time at SMU for a game - Moody is an excellent smaller gym. That place could be rocking during a really big game. It was pretty empty tonight though.

SMU is a very good team. They didn't run a complex offense that I could tell, but they were athletic, fast and moved the ball really well. They remined me of the senior laden teams that we've seen in the tourney previously that had our number many years ago (Siena, Murray St., etc.).

The first half was very impressive - despite not having any of the five most exciting plays in the half, we continuously were ahead - we hit our shots, rebounded well and played tough. The last 6-7 minutes were phenomenal. SMU kept the pressure on throughout the half, but we showed up well - someone mentioned that it was the best half of the season so far and that may be the case.

The second half obviously was where it broke down. I'll leave it to the better analysts on the board to share their thoughts, but I felt like 1) SMU changed to a press early on that was very effective, 2) they broke down our zone D and we did not recover well, 3) we forced many shots, and 4) several of our key guys were visibly very frustrated. Recipe for a terrible run, especially when they clearly had momentum in the first 11 minutes. We couldn't recover after that run.

I know this has been discussed on the board before, but I was concerned with the coaching in the second half. CJS was active, but we did not respond well to the very effective press and energy SMU created early on. We did not make many adjustments in the second half that worked (briefly tried some man D, changed personnel, offense design looked stagnant and one dimensional). We needed to control the flow of the game when it was getting out of hand - that didn't happen.

CJS was into the game and on his guys throughout the game, but I somehow wanted more from him in the second half - both from X's and O's, but also in game management (limiting the the main 11 minute run, calming down his players, adjusting the offense). I was disappointed when he left early after the game ended - he didn't shake the SMU staff's or player's hands after the game. He just bee lined it for the locker room. Understand he was PO'ed, but was surprised.

Being behind the bench, the trainers, bench and assistant coaches were hyped the whole time, even when the going was tough. Know that's their job, but it was good to see.

Definitely was proud of the guys - that was a very difficult game, they played tough.


User avatar
dcdore
Admiral
Posts: 5255
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:17 pm
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by dcdore »

Thanks
Always hopeful; rarely optimistic. @GAD
CommodoreNick
Petty Officer
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:09 am

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by CommodoreNick »

I too was at the game behind the Vandy bench. Row 3 to be exact. seat 19

I sat right behind Wright’s parents. They were wonderful people and extremely positive. I was very impressed with the overall morale of the entire staff and managers.

Moody was a great place to watch a game but I have to agree about Stack. He shook Jankovichs hand and then left. Not a good look.

SMU was the more athletic and better team.
Mcflash
Lieutenant
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:27 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Mcflash »

Stack was going later to the Mavericks-Grizzlies game to meet some old friends, or so he mentioned on the pre-game. Don't know if that prompted his quick exit or not.
User avatar
buffy
Vice Admiral
Posts: 3359
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:49 pm
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by buffy »

And I was also at the game. Higher up, looking down. I'll go more into some other details.

This is a guards game, and missing Chatham showed. Our guards were not up to the challenge of very athletic defenders playing tight and getting plenty of leeway from the refs. That frustrated Stack even though the refs made some makeup calls throughout.

Jordan Wright had a bad game at every level. He more than anyone else was exposed in this situation as a ballhandler. He was completely out of his comfort level. And it affected everything else. Again, throw Chatham in here and the dynamics are completely different.

Let me tell you about Quentin. Although you can't really build an offense around him, the cat knows how to be effective in his space. His length creates problems for others. He will absolutely battle the opposing big underneath. If we can get Liam back, we're in real good position here.

Some of you may have noticed Shane Dezonie was in this game a lot. It was clear Stack wanted him to take some lumps. It's also clear he didn't know where to be sometimes as his teammates were directing him. He has talent though. Fairly big and physical with some spring. This experience will help him, help us later.

Terren Frank is stout. Not super tall, but he's built like a man. He made some good decisions on the court. I like him.

Let's talk about Scottie. He shot well....real well. But without much help initiating the offense he did some sloppy stuff. Some sloppy passes. He did his best James Strong impression jumping in the air without a plan after getting trapped underneath the goal like 4 times. It was silly.

Our offense is decent in the half court. We have no business in the fast break against athletic teams.

SMU is better. Jank has these guys moving the ball like pros. In the first half, the shots weren't falling. In the second half they did. They're more athletic also.

If we had both our starters back, this would have been a close game. In the second half our offense just crumbled under the pressure without a real point guard to keep them honest. With Liam, we can add an in-and-out game that opens up people like Trey for threes. SMU just needed to hammer our guards and we were toast.

In the first couple of recruiting classes Stack focused on forwards. I think he understands the guard aspect of it now, but being exposed sucks.

I'd of like to see a timeout to slow the carnage early in the second, but I don't think there was anything we were gonna fix besides telling them to slow down.
dore74
Vice Admiral
Posts: 3144
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:02 pm
Has thanked: 80 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by dore74 »

Thanks guys. Very insightful reporting. Sounds like Stack really wants to let the team take its lumps early on and learn. Let’s see how we surmount the injury bug and/or whether the youngsters on the squad can pick it up a notch.
User avatar
OldDude
Vice Admiral
Posts: 4508
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:59 pm
Location: Bellevue
Has thanked: 123 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by OldDude »

Mcflash wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:29 am Stack was going later to the Mavericks-Grizzlies game to meet some old friends, or so he mentioned on the pre-game. Don't know if that prompted his quick exit or not.
Appreciate him wanting to meet his old friends, but I hope that wasn't the reason as his first obligation is to his current friends / players / job.
dbrandon1
Seaman Recruit
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:26 pm

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by dbrandon1 »

How did Lawrence play? I was only able to watch part of the game on my phone. Not much for him in the box score.
alathIN
Rear Admiral
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:35 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by alathIN »

Seems like we have had trouble beating the press.
In earlier games we were playing inferior teams that pressed and got by.
To beat a good team that presses, we will need to do a lot better.
To me the press is a bit like blitzing in football. Shaky teams seem to react like "Uh-oh, they're blitzing [pressing]."
A really good team sees that and says "Great! We can make them pay for this!"

It's not about athletic talent, either. Eddie Fogler's VU teams could surgically dissect the press and they were not overly athletic.

Agree w/Buffy re QMB. His offensive game in the paint is not great. But the strengths of his game are really pretty good. He has great hoops IQ and makes some really nice passes.
User avatar
Doreknox
Admiral
Posts: 6969
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:17 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Doreknox »

alathIN wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:25 pm
It's not about athletic talent, either. Eddie Fogler's VU teams could surgically dissect the press and they were not overly athletic.
Well, Fogler was a very good coach. Our current coach...not so much.
Ndorefin
Vice Admiral
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:08 am
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Ndorefin »

I think Dezonie gave us an offensive spark…3 for 3 from 3. No one other than Pip made a three! How does a guy Frank’s size play 14 minutes without a rebound??? Wright didn’t have his best all-around game, but he did get 12 rebounds andper usual, if Stute doesn’t hit a 3, he disappears. It was obvious from the beginning, Pippen wanted to impress against Davis….he scored 29 points on 21 shots, while Davis scored 21 on 10 shots….you be the judge.
MrMemorial
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by MrMemorial »

Fogler was well under .500 in the league two of the four years he was here. His best year was aided by three transfers that were actually originally recruited by C M Newton when they were in h.s.

People tend to forget things like that, just as they only remember that Sloan had a winning season in football...one...with Bill Pace recruited players and against some poor OOC competition. Nostalgia causes selective amnesia.

I found it ironic that Fogler said he was a fan of Vanderbilt academics where he was hired here but then drops hints that he couldn't recruit here because of it. So he went to South Carolina and had 2 winning seasons in the SEC in 8 years of very little academic obstacles.

{GIANT "ROLL EYES" ICON HERE}
User avatar
buffy
Vice Admiral
Posts: 3359
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:49 pm
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by buffy »

Doreknox wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:49 pm Well, Fogler was a very good coach. Our current coach...not so much.
I'm not buying this. We got beat.

It was not so much turnovers on the press. Our guards were bringing the ball down the court and getting their pockets picked because their handles aren't tight enough. That's not coaching, that's a skill. Scottie was pressured all night long. Trey is tiny and not quick. Jordan was sloppy. They simply got beat. Rodney with Scottie would snuff this nonsense out. Liam underneath would penalize teams for pressuring the guards too much.

We're a decent team that's missing some pieces. If we get those two guys back, tell me about bad coaching in March.
Last edited by buffy on Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Jason94
Admiral
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:15 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Jason94 »

MrMemorial wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:50 pm Fogler was well under .500 in the league two of the four years he was here. His best year was aided by three transfers that were actually originally recruited by C M Newton when they were in h.s.

People tend to forget things like that, just as they only remember that Sloan had a winning season in football...one...with Bill Pace recruited players and against some poor OOC competition. Nostalgia causes selective amnesia.

I found it ironic that Fogler said he was a fan of Vanderbilt academics where he was hired here but then drops hints that he couldn't recruit here because of it. So he went to South Carolina and had 2 winning seasons in the SEC in 8 years of very little academic obstacles.

{GIANT "ROLL EYES" ICON HERE}
I'm not sure why you feel the need to denigrate our former coaches, especially the two who had more success here than anyone over the last 5 seasons. Both CEF and CKS were not perfect, but were both more successful than any coach we've had since coach Skinner. By denigrating them you are essentially saying we've been a nothing program for almost 50 years. With the exception of 1988, all of the most memorable seasons we've had since Skinner left had have come from either CKS or CEF. Almost all of the significant wins have come from those two coaches, and of the 20 wins we have against UK over that period, only 5 came from coaches other than CKS or CEF (all prior to 1989 - coach VBK, Drew and Stackhouse never beat UK while coaching VU).

Without those coaches, our program is almost completely irrelevant over the last 50 years. It has been completely irrelevant over the past 5 seasons and at the moment we are hoping for a way to where we were prior to releasing CKS.
MrMemorial
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by MrMemorial »

As long as the same people with the same agenda refuse to give the current coach a chance to fix what the predecessor left behind for him to fix, I will point out whatever seems like what they need to wake up and know. Just as you can be their self-appointed apologist if you want. This America. No law against it.

Unless you are a mod, don't tell me what to post and not post. Thank you in advance.
jpmando
Commander
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:22 am
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by jpmando »

love to hear about those agendas. And they are?
User avatar
Nashmann
Admiral
Posts: 9991
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:36 am
Location: Nashville
Has thanked: 109 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Contact:

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Nashmann »

Oh...oh.....uh.....if we only had Chatman & Robbins we'd win the SEC....heck maybe a National Championship lol!
"I have not yet begun to fight!" ....John Paul Jones AD* AD* @GAD @AD
Hutch37
Commander
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:45 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by Hutch37 »

watching that debacle of a second half it was hard for me to understand our lack of ability to stop turning the ball over against pressure . Pippen has been surprisingly careless with the ball in several games- TT-our backup PG seemed unable to be physical enough to protect the ball against pressure; Jordan's wright's improvement has been fun to watch but he needs to avoid that spin move into traffic that resulted in several TOs on saturday. CKS often used a point forward like anthony williams(i think that's the right name...) to help our guards. Maybe it hurt more than we thought when Daniels left as he was probably on the way to becoming our backup PG. I haven't seen enough of Lawrence and Dezonie to get a feel for their handles yet but their physicality should be an asset. Since we have not seen them on the court i have no idea on the leadership that Chatman and robbins can bring but having someone step up and get us settled down early in the second half might have really changed things for us. I still feel like this team is different but it is a little scary to see these flashes of the last few years in the VCU and SMU games.
User avatar
geeznotagain
Admiral
Posts: 8877
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:04 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by geeznotagain »

Hutch37 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:13 am CKS often used a point forward like anthony williams(i think that's the right name...) to help our guards.
Jeff Taylor is another name that comes to mind.
User avatar
mathguy
Rear Admiral
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:27 pm
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: SMU Game Thoughts

Post by mathguy »

Jason94 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:03 pm
MrMemorial wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:50 pm Fogler was well under .500 in the league two of the four years he was here. His best year was aided by three transfers that were actually originally recruited by C M Newton when they were in h.s.

People tend to forget things like that, just as they only remember that Sloan had a winning season in football...one...with Bill Pace recruited players and against some poor OOC competition. Nostalgia causes selective amnesia.

I found it ironic that Fogler said he was a fan of Vanderbilt academics where he was hired here but then drops hints that he couldn't recruit here because of it. So he went to South Carolina and had 2 winning seasons in the SEC in 8 years of very little academic obstacles.

{GIANT "ROLL EYES" ICON HERE}
I'm not sure why you feel the need to denigrate our former coaches, especially the two who had more success here than anyone over the last 5 seasons. Both CEF and CKS were not perfect, but were both more successful than any coach we've had since coach Skinner. By denigrating them you are essentially saying we've been a nothing program for almost 50 years. With the exception of 1988, all of the most memorable seasons we've had since Skinner left had have come from either CKS or CEF. Almost all of the significant wins have come from those two coaches, and of the 20 wins we have against UK over that period, only 5 came from coaches other than CKS or CEF (all prior to 1989 - coach VBK, Drew and Stackhouse never beat UK while coaching VU).

Without those coaches, our program is almost completely irrelevant over the last 50 years. It has been completely irrelevant over the past 5 seasons and at the moment we are hoping for a way to where we were prior to releasing CKS.
I think everyone (or almost everyone) knows what we had in Stallings. Great guy. Great coach. Great memories. And when he left, it was totally time for everyone to move one. He had lost the team and the fans. It just wasn't working anymore.

As for Fogler ... the short length of his stay here makes his legacy more complicated. He did produce, arguably, the best season in program history (certainly one of the top 5 ... after that it gets debatable). But since he didn't stick around (for whatever reason ... not going to rehash that) it's hard to really judge whether he was a great coach that did a great job or if he just caught lightning in a bottle. I mean, anyone remember Indiana being all excited when Mike Davis led the team to the national title game in the post-Bobby Knight era? Yeah ... that excitement didn't last so long. I don't want to slam Fogler who did good things for us ... but he legacy is probably helped by the fact that he left after his greatest success and was never asked to repeat it (at Vandy, any rate).
Locked Previous topicNext topic