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Step away from the ledge.

For discussion of Vanderbilt Commodores men's basketball games and recruiting.

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GoVU
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by GoVU » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:46 pm

Could this be the starting 5 ?
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Jason94
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by Jason94 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:59 pm

Are all eligible to play next season? Are all signed? It isn't hyperbole to suggest that we will struggle next season if Pippen and Disu aren't back next season - it is Pollyannaish to think that we don't have a potential issues if we end up with our fifth consecutive losing season next year.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by MrMemorial » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 pm

We won a total of seven SEC games in 2 seasons WITH Pippen and Disu. Maybe they are not the be-all and end-all solution.

And Pippen is not gone yet. Until he is gone, he's not gone.

Stepping back from the ledge is not pollyanna-ish at all. It's what well adjusted people do that are not unhinged over a kid transferring. Students transfer. Even the ones who don't play ball.
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Jason94
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by Jason94 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am

MrMemorial wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 pm
We won a total of seven SEC games in 2 seasons WITH Pippen and Disu. Maybe they are not the be-all and end-all solution.

And Pippen is not gone yet. Until he is gone, he's not gone.

Stepping back from the ledge is not pollyanna-ish at all. It's what well adjusted people do that are not unhinged over a kid transferring. Students transfer. Even the ones who don't play ball.
Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them. Our problem the last few years has been our inability to retain our best players, leaving us to start anew the following season, leading to tough seasons. How does losing Disu and Pippen alleviate this issue?

I never thought I'd hear the argument that losing Disu and Pippen might actually be a good thing. Anyone who thinks that losing Pippen and Disu for next season isn't a massive setback to our prospects in 2022 is fooling themselves.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unhinged". Since you are new I will give you a pass, but trust me, my analysis is the opposite of unhinged. Pippen might now be gone yet (and if he returns I'll be quite pleased), but our recent history hasn't given us a ton of reason to suggest that we should be overly optimistic. Certainly you are as tired of losing seasons (not just losing SEC seasons, but losing seasons overall) as the rest of us are. The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by buffy » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:52 am

I've articulated this before. Unless our coach can sell Vanderbilt as an alternative to this gritless, me-first environment, I doubt we can have any future success. And as noted, I believe both he and CBD have sold this as an NBA stepping stone. I'm not saying he can't. His recent wins on the recruiting front tells me he's working hard. I just haven't seen anything that suggests he sees the niche we need to be in to be successful. Of course, I could be wrong. I just think the new simple transfer rule fosters the creation of fragile adults. Commitment is hard. It's also very rewarding. Transfers should be the exception based on messed up circumstances. But unfortunately, we'll never go back. In this new world, we simply have to sell an alternative relationship based on commitment and support. Sell Vanderbilt as an unique experience. Clark Lea clearly sees it. I hope CJS can figure it out. Heck, maybe he has. I just don't know.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by mathguy » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am

Jason94 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
MrMemorial wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 pm
We won a total of seven SEC games in 2 seasons WITH Pippen and Disu. Maybe they are not the be-all and end-all solution.

Stepping back from the ledge is not pollyanna-ish at all. It's what well adjusted people do that are not unhinged over a kid transferring. Students transfer. Even the ones who don't play ball.
Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them. Our problem the last few years has been our inability to retain our best players, leaving us to start anew the following season, leading to tough seasons. How does losing Disu and Pippen alleviate this issue?

I never thought I'd hear the argument that losing Disu and Pippen might actually be a good thing. Anyone who thinks that losing Pippen and Disu for next season isn't a massive setback to our prospects in 2022 is fooling themselves.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unhinged". Since you are new I will give you a pass, but trust me, my analysis is the opposite of unhinged. Pippen might now be gone yet (and if he returns I'll be quite pleased), but our recent history hasn't given us a ton of reason to suggest that we should be overly optimistic. Certainly you are as tired of losing seasons (not just losing SEC seasons, but losing seasons overall) as the rest of us are. The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
I think you are being harsh here Jason and misunderstanding the intent of the post.

I didn't read this post as saying that Pippen and Disu were the problem, or that losing them might be a good thing.

I read it as acknowledging some facts. 1) Player turnover is part of college basketball. 2) We weren't all that good to begin with

It is fair to say that Pippen and Disu weren't the saviors of our program. They were good players that we wish stuck around longer. We are also bringing in good players as freshmen and transfers. So especially considering that the bar set by last season wasn't really all that high, there maybe isn't a reason to go all gloom and doom and assume we can't possibly clear it.

Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by Hutch37 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:08 am

Robbins and Chatman stand out for sure. Our best teams have had veteran leadership at guard and Chatman will bring that. Robbins is a difference maker- we have not had back end help on defense since CJS has been here. I think having Robbins will enable us to play the type D he wants to play. All the close losses last year showed our team growth. Yes it may be an uphill climb with our unexpected losses but we may as well dwell on the positive on the guys he is bringing in.
There is no way that the NCAA will look at the massive switching around from team to team and think that this is a good thing for college sports. Every team has been affected - I think development is a real strength with our coach- the trick will be finding the players willing to go through the process with him. if pippen does go pro then that has to be a real testament to our coach for giving a non highly recruit player the reins as a freshman and then have him go pro after sophomore year. I still think there is a decent chance he comes back.
Either way - call me crazy but i certainly have not given up hope for this team.
thanks for the post with the links !
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by buffy » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am

mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am
Jason94 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
MrMemorial wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 pm
We won a total of seven SEC games in 2 seasons WITH Pippen and Disu. Maybe they are not the be-all and end-all solution.

Stepping back from the ledge is not pollyanna-ish at all. It's what well adjusted people do that are not unhinged over a kid transferring. Students transfer. Even the ones who don't play ball.
Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them......... The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
I think you are being harsh here Jason and misunderstanding the intent of the post.
..........
Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
And I'll respond that the point Jason94 was hammering is that continuity, for the most part, is extremely important when building a team that isn't filled with lottery picks. We've had no continuity over the past three seasons. Could you imagine a team like this: Senior (Saben Lee) Juniors (Garland/Shittu/Nesmith) Sophomores (Pippen/Lee). You could do something with a team like that. Even taking away the lottery picks (those guys should take the money), you have Lee, Shittu, Pippen and Disu. Think about a K-Mart Jr. running around on the court instead of in the NBA. I know that's wishful thinking. In fact, this highlights the problem of playing the recruiting game like we're doing. We need to do something different where solid ball players see Vanderbilt as a different kind of opportunity.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by mathguy » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:28 am

buffy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am
mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am
Jason94 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am


Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them......... The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
I think you are being harsh here Jason and misunderstanding the intent of the post.
..........
Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
And I'll respond that the point Jason94 was hammering is that continuity, for the most part, is extremely important when building a team that isn't filled with lottery picks. We've had no continuity over the past three seasons. Could you imagine a team like this: Senior (Saben Lee) Juniors (Garland/Shittu/Nesmith) Sophomores (Pippen/Lee). You could do something with a team like that. Even taking away the lottery picks (those guys should take the money), you have Lee, Shittu, Pippen and Disu. Think about a K-Mart Jr. running around on the court instead of in the NBA. I know that's wishful thinking. In fact, this highlights the problem of playing the recruiting game like we're doing. We need to do something different where solid ball players see Vanderbilt as a different kind of opportunity.
And no doubt Jason is right about that. The lack of continuity has been a problem for a long time.

It started near the end of Stallings' tenure when we lost that great senior class with Taylor and Ezeli ... and then Kedron Johnson sort of self-combusted ... and then we looked to have a promising future, until Jeter jettisoned for Pittsburgh and that other guy (can't think of his name, but I'll kick myself when someone tells me) left to go home to a sick mom in Germany. We seemed to right the ship with the LaChance class (though that never quite lived up to expectations). And then since then ... Garland gets hurt and leaves, Shittu plays poorly and leaves, Nesmith gets hurt and leaves, Lee leaves early, KMart Jr backs out of his commitment ... not to mention the guys who have transferred who could have, at least, helped with depth issues.

So, I'll agree with that (even if I think he was a little sharp with MrMemorial).
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by vandy05 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:37 am

buffy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am
mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am
Jason94 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am


Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them......... The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
I think you are being harsh here Jason and misunderstanding the intent of the post.
..........
Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
And I'll respond that the point Jason94 was hammering is that continuity, for the most part, is extremely important when building a team that isn't filled with lottery picks. We've had no continuity over the past three seasons. Could you imagine a team like this: Senior (Saben Lee) Juniors (Garland/Shittu/Nesmith) Sophomores (Pippen/Lee). You could do something with a team like that. Even taking away the lottery picks (those guys should take the money), you have Lee, Shittu, Pippen and Disu. Think about a K-Mart Jr. running around on the court instead of in the NBA. I know that's wishful thinking. In fact, this highlights the problem of playing the recruiting game like we're doing. We need to do something different where solid ball players see Vanderbilt as a different kind of opportunity.
The only issue I would take with some of this is that its not like we're competing with Kentucky, Duke, etc. for players who are one and done type of kids. We're recruiting three star and four star kids who develop into players (We knew that wasn't the case with Garland). Shittu just flat out made a bad decision for his wallet and should've backed off the draft when it became apparent he wasn't actually ready.

But if you're taking a 3.5/4 star kid like K-Mart and then he jets for a professional option or if you take a 3 star kid like Pippen and he develops into an NBA player and the same happens with Lee and Nesmith. I'm not sure what you can do to guard against that. Take worse players? Don't coach them up so well? Take guys who would rather play a third year in college than be a first round pick? I'm being a bit facetious, but you get my drift. Some improvements can likely be made, but this is the world we are in.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by Jason94 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:43 am

mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am
Jason94 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
MrMemorial wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 pm
We won a total of seven SEC games in 2 seasons WITH Pippen and Disu. Maybe they are not the be-all and end-all solution.

Stepping back from the ledge is not pollyanna-ish at all. It's what well adjusted people do that are not unhinged over a kid transferring. Students transfer. Even the ones who don't play ball.
Yowza - we won 7 games because of Disu and Pippen, not in spite of them. Our problem the last few years has been our inability to retain our best players, leaving us to start anew the following season, leading to tough seasons. How does losing Disu and Pippen alleviate this issue?

I never thought I'd hear the argument that losing Disu and Pippen might actually be a good thing. Anyone who thinks that losing Pippen and Disu for next season isn't a massive setback to our prospects in 2022 is fooling themselves.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unhinged". Since you are new I will give you a pass, but trust me, my analysis is the opposite of unhinged. Pippen might now be gone yet (and if he returns I'll be quite pleased), but our recent history hasn't given us a ton of reason to suggest that we should be overly optimistic. Certainly you are as tired of losing seasons (not just losing SEC seasons, but losing seasons overall) as the rest of us are. The lack of player continuity is absolutely at the root of this problem and at this point the only returning contributors may be Wright, Thomas, Stute and Millora Brown.
I think you are being harsh here Jason and misunderstanding the intent of the post.

I didn't read this post as saying that Pippen and Disu were the problem, or that losing them might be a good thing.

I read it as acknowledging some facts. 1) Player turnover is part of college basketball. 2) We weren't all that good to begin with

It is fair to say that Pippen and Disu weren't the saviors of our program. They were good players that we wish stuck around longer. We are also bringing in good players as freshmen and transfers. So especially considering that the bar set by last season wasn't really all that high, there maybe isn't a reason to go all gloom and doom and assume we can't possibly clear it.

Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
Perhaps, but it seemed quite clear to me throughout this season that the key to having any sort of success next season (and building to a point where we could again become regulars in the conversation of the NCAA tournament would require having both Pippen and Disu on the team. It is possible we might win 4 games instead of 3, but I think it is extremely optimistic to think we might have a chance at a tournament bid without them, and it seems that at best we are set back another year. With them, I think it would have been almost certain that we would win more games that we did this season. Note that the unhinged comment was directed at my post by the OP, I was not calling the OP unhinged.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by UltimateVUFan » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:06 pm

mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:28 am
.
that other guy (can't think of his name, but I'll kick myself when someone tells me) left to go home to a sick mom in Germany.
Kevin Bright. He showed so much upside his freshman year. Great shooter and rebounder with plenty of athleticism and pretty high IQ. That was a tough loss. But now we’re going back pretty far. Of course, that’s kind of your point. Though, it seems like this has become a much larger trend since Stallings left (and it is certainly NCAA-wide, so not trying to blame Drew or Stack). Many good points in this thread about recruiting players who are willing to stay and buy in. Of course, as was already mentioned, it’s hard to knock Stack re: Pippen if Pippen chooses to stay in the draft. If he withdraws and doesn’t return to VU (i.e. transfers), that would be problematic, to Jason’s point about continuity.
Any way you slice it, I can’t fault anyone for being a little pessimistic about the current state of VU basketball.
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by MrMemorial » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:18 pm

mathguy wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:53 am

I didn't read this post as saying that Pippen and Disu were the problem, or that losing them might be a good thing.

I read it as acknowledging some facts. 1) Player turnover is part of college basketball. 2) We weren't all that good to begin with

It is fair to say that Pippen and Disu weren't the saviors of our program. They were good players that we wish stuck around longer. We are also bringing in good players as freshmen and transfers. So especially considering that the bar set by last season wasn't really all that high, there maybe isn't a reason to go all gloom and doom and assume we can't possibly clear it.

Sure we'd like Pippen and Disu back. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. And yet we may come back with an equal or better team than we had last year. Might be optimistic, but I don't see an unhnged post.
Yes, ^^ THAT ^^
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by dunc77 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:12 pm

Hutch37 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:08 am

There is no way that the NCAA will look at the massive switching around from team to team and think that this is a good thing for college sports.
It's definitely not a good thing, but I still wonder exactly what problem this is supposed to solve. How was this policy formulated?
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Re: Step away from the ledge.

Post by UltimateVUFan » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:07 pm

dunc77 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:12 pm
Hutch37 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:08 am

There is no way that the NCAA will look at the massive switching around from team to team and think that this is a good thing for college sports.
It's definitely not a good thing, but I still wonder exactly what problem this is supposed to solve. How was this policy formulated?
A bunch of “blue bloods” had down years, and that’s not good for revenue streams. (Only being mildly cynical and facetious here; I truly believe that this played a part in the decision, even though the idea to revise the system and streamline it had already been floated.)
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