my mini-manifesto - or rant

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my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by roanoke »

I like Stack. I think he is a good coach.

I like watching basketball - even not-great basketball, because I like to watch players improve and build for getting better for the future. I liked watching this past season because we were getting better and I was investing in 2021-22.

But that gets shaken when the future consistently never comes because everybody leaves prematurely.

This is obviously not a problem with just us - but all college basketball. But especially for us.

Because kids want to win. They want to be in the NCAA tourney - and when an NCAA lock comes "calling" and you are a star on a team hoping to be a .500 team next year - you can't help but flirt with the idea of being on national tv in a relevant role.

The problem then is: if you are a losing team, it is a death spiral. It is really hard to spin out of it - because your good players will be poached, or get tired of losing and turn pro too early. And your other players who might have developed in the old days leave for more playing time somewhere else, because they have been sitting behind the players that leave. Everyone ends up screwed.

Loyalty of players - and loyalty of fans - gets stretched when the NCAA rules allow this kind of portal freedom/infidelity.

I don't blame Stack for the departure of Disu. But it hurts. It hurts the whole program. It hurts the kids who transferred in to play with him and be on a respectable team. It hurts Pippen if he comes back. And we could have been a really good team next year: Pippen, Chatman, Thomas, Robbins, Wright, Disu, Terrin Frank, Stute, Lawrence if healthy, Millora Brown. That was going to be a good team - even without Evans and Clevon Brown who left for grad school (and I get that.) McBride would have helped too - but he is also gone.

The truth is: if Pippen comes back (and I think he should), we will still be ok. Maybe better than that, but it is frustrating to lose players simply because a better offer comes around. Or they don't start as freshmen... or for whatever reason kids pinball all over the place these days. I hope the rules firm up so that there are more consequences for leaving your team - because (while it is the right of every kid to go to school where they want to be) players leaving teams early hurts coaches, fans, and other players. It is to the point that it is hurting the game. Because sooner or later, I and others will wise up and stop getting enjoyment at watching us "grow" or develop chemistry - because the next year we will be starting from scratch anyway.

To my way of thinking college baseball does this right: you come, you stay until you are 21 or for three years. One and done is even starting to cripple the Duke's, UK's and UNC's of the world. Ironically, we are producing as many first rounders as these schools lately - and we have very little to show for it in the win column.


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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by Minoadoc »

"Loyalty of players - and loyalty of fans - gets stretched..." There is a inflection point on the horizon if the current situation dosen't change. Hopefully, we have coaching staffs that can adapt and prosper
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by DS2001 »

I`m afraid we're in danger of becoming the "Poachee" rather than the "Poacher" when it comes to quality players. I predict Disu will be a Texas Longhorn soon.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by vandy05 »

roanoke wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:11 am I like Stack. I think he is a good coach.

I like watching basketball - even not-great basketball, because I like to watch players improve and build for getting better for the future. I liked watching this past season because we were getting better and I was investing in 2021-22.

But that gets shaken when the future consistently never comes because everybody leaves prematurely.

This is obviously not a problem with just us - but all college basketball. But especially for us.

Because kids want to win. They want to be in the NCAA tourney - and when an NCAA lock comes "calling" and you are a star on a team hoping to be a .500 team next year - you can't help but flirt with the idea of being on national tv in a relevant role.

The problem then is: if you are a losing team, it is a death spiral. It is really hard to spin out of it - because your good players will be poached, or get tired of losing and turn pro too early. And your other players who might have developed in the old days leave for more playing time somewhere else, because they have been sitting behind the players that leave. Everyone ends up screwed.

Loyalty of players - and loyalty of fans - gets stretched when the NCAA rules allow this kind of portal freedom/infidelity.

I don't blame Stack for the departure of Disu. But it hurts. It hurts the whole program. It hurts the kids who transferred in to play with him and be on a respectable team. It hurts Pippen if he comes back. And we could have been a really good team next year: Pippen, Chatman, Thomas, Robbins, Disu, Terrin Frank, Stute, Lawrence if healthy, Millora Brown. That was going to be a good team - even without Evans and Clevon Brown who left for grad school (and I get that.) McBride would have helped too - but he is also gone.

The truth is: if Pippen comes back (and I think he should), we will still be ok. Maybe better than that, but it is frustrating to lose players simply because a better offer comes around. Or they don't start as freshmen... or for whatever reason kids pinball all over the place these days. I hope the rules firm up so that there are more consequences for leaving your team - because (while it is the right of every kid to go to school where they want to be) players leaving teams early hurts coaches, fans, and other players. It is to the point that it is hurting the game. Because sooner or later, I and others will wise up and stop getting enjoyment at watching us "grow" or develop chemistry - because the next year we will be starting from scratch anyway.

To my way of thinking college baseball does this right: you come, you stay until you are 21 or for three years. One and done is even starting to cripple the Duke's, UK's and UNC's of the world. Ironically, we are producing as many first rounders as these schools lately - and we have very little to show for it in the win column.
No rant there roanoke. Its all very well said and very fair. Its easy if you're a UK fan. You root for the jersey. But places like VU like to see the kids grow up with us. I'm still not sure how much all of this will hurt VU, but its something to keep an eye on.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by Foreverhopeful »

I loved seeing the 4 year players- Brad Tinsley, Steve Tchiengang, Shan, Festus, etc. It was sad to see them graduate, but we knew they gave us their all for 4 years. We were with them through high times, injuries, slumps and all the rest. It is truly not the same anymore.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by DeefromAtlanta »

It's a different world. Just ask Roy Williams.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by jpmando »

Well the good old days truly won't return.

But you cannot tell me that there are not players out there who can compete, and win, and who care about team, with a mature approach to education, and the long term view of the value of a VU experience. We need to find them and recruit them. Nashville is by far the best city in the SEC-do we ever mention that?

We need to quit wasting time money and effort on the NBA wannabes-it's not us, never was, never will be. Be who we are. Get a darn coach who understands and cares about that. I would hire Fogler back in a heartbeat.

Let the yowling begin.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by UltimateVUFan »

I doubt Fogler wants the job. And I guarantee you he is not cut out for the modern landscape of coaching D1 college basketball. Not taking anything away from him, but as we have beaten to death on the board in response to events of the past 48 hours, it is a different game and world altogether (for the worse, being the general consensus, and count me in the majority who hold that view).
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by MrMemorial »

Fogler's recruiting mostly sucked. He won with transfers who were originally recruited out of high school by CM Newton. The guys he was about to bring to VU that ended up with him at South Carolina like Formanek and VanEllswyk ended up total busts. Chad Sheron was typical of a Fogler recruit...1.7ppg career average.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by GoVU »

Fouler had South Carolina ranked as high as #3 in the Nation. I’d take that.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by buffy »

jpmando wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:39 pm Well the good old days truly won't return.

But you cannot tell me that there are not players out there who can compete, and win, and who care about team, with a mature approach to education, and the long term view of the value of a VU experience. We need to find them and recruit them. Nashville is by far the best city in the SEC-do we ever mention that?

We need to quit wasting time money and effort on the NBA wannabes-it's not us, never was, never will be. Be who we are. Get a darn coach who understands and cares about that. I would hire Fogler back in a heartbeat.

Let the yowling begin.
This.....We can only succeed as a proud alternative experience. If CJS can figure this out, he can be successful. It'll take several years to change course.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by vandy05 »

buffy wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:56 am
jpmando wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:39 pm Well the good old days truly won't return.

But you cannot tell me that there are not players out there who can compete, and win, and who care about team, with a mature approach to education, and the long term view of the value of a VU experience. We need to find them and recruit them. Nashville is by far the best city in the SEC-do we ever mention that?

We need to quit wasting time money and effort on the NBA wannabes-it's not us, never was, never will be. Be who we are. Get a darn coach who understands and cares about that. I would hire Fogler back in a heartbeat.

Let the yowling begin.
This.....We can only succeed as a proud alternative experience. If CJS can figure this out, he can be successful. It'll take several years to change course.
Its just my opinion, but a mature approach to education doesn't always mean Vanderbilt is where you have to be. We have our advantages (and as a Vandy grad I am damn proud of them), but so do other schools. Plus, if you're a college kid at Vanderbilt, your bubble is actually pretty small and likely comparable to what it is in a Gainesville, Athens, etc. You're on your campus, you go to off-campus housing for parties, you have a few bars and clubs you frequent and that's about it. You're not taking in a ton of the culture if you're a student-athlete. Frankly you just don't have time. That doesn't mean we should not promote the city, but just giving it some perspective.

Regarding NBA wannabe's, that's all of the kids these days. Amateur basketball at the high school/AAU level is irrevocably broken in my opinion. If the NBA is not part of your pitch at a Power 5 school these days then you're just not going to compete for the best players so you better be a top 5 evaluator and developer. That's tough for anyone to lay claim to. Again, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

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MrMemorial wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:33 pm Fogler's recruiting mostly sucked. He won with transfers who were originally recruited out of high school by CM Newton. The guys he was about to bring to VU that ended up with him at South Carolina like Formanek and VanEllswyk ended up total busts. Chad Sheron was typical of a Fogler recruit...1.7ppg career average.
True, but continuity of players and having seniors makes up a good amount for recruiting deficiencies. Fogler's worst season here had us at 15-15. Even CJVB had underrecruited players who turned out to be good players as seniors. Austin Bates as a senior is likely a better player than 90% of the freshmen big me we are going to get.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by MrMemorial »

GoVU wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:18 am Fouler had South Carolina ranked as high as #3 in the Nation. I’d take that.
Four of the top six players that year were recruited by the previous coach there. Not by "Fouler" [sic]

And what happened when they were gone???

8-21 / 3-13
15-17 / 5-11
15-15 / 6-10

OOPS!! :oops:

So... where did he coach after South Carolina?
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by Jason94 »

MrMemorial wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm
GoVU wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:18 am Fouler had South Carolina ranked as high as #3 in the Nation. I’d take that.
Four of the top six players that year were recruited by the previous coach there. Not by "Fouler" [sic]

And what happened when they were gone???

8-21 / 3-13
15-17 / 5-11
15-15 / 6-10

OOPS!! :oops:

So... where did he coach after South Carolina?
They were recruited, but not really coached by the previous coach, as it was CEF's 4th season. You did leave out the following season as well, where USCe went 23-8/11-5. That said, USCe was always a weird choice for CEF, as he certainly fit Vanderbilt much better, but our AD and Chancellor were not friendly to athletics. I also can't discount the work he did with player he recruited or got to transfer in, because that does apply to CJS, who didn't technically recruit Lee, NeSmith, Pippen or Disu either (they were already committed and signed when CJS go the job), but CJS developed both players in a way that I doubt CBD would have been able to.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by MrMemorial »

South Carolina was .500 in Fogler's last season and immediately won 22 games under Odom the next.

I wouldn't want Fogler back if he was willing to coach for free.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by fldore »

roanoke wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:11 am

To my way of thinking college baseball does this right: you come, you stay until you are 21 or for three years. One and done is even starting to cripple the Duke's, UK's and UNC's of the world. Ironically, we are producing as many first rounders as these schools lately - and we have very little to show for it in the win column.
I'm sure you know this but I do think it is worth repeating that it isn't a college baseball rule. It is an MLB rule. It just happens to work out great for college baseball. Would be great if the NBA imposed something similar. While the D-League (G league, whatever they call it league) isn't on par with the minor league system in baseball, I do think there are a bunch of options for kids who dont want to be in college and plenty of second tier professional leagues they could join as they prep for the NBA. And while there is nothing a school could do to keep a guy for 3 years (they could always leave for one of the other professional leagues), at least you'd initially be recruiting kids that wanted to be in school in the first place and would be less likely to leave.

As far as Vandy, I've been on record saying I dont care for Stackhouse. I was skeptical of the hire as I always assumed this was a stepping stone for him and have said repeatedly the only way I think he stays is if he isnt good enough to go elsewhere. He does seem like a solid coach in terms of maximizing abilities of players. And based on some recent recruits, he may be able to acquire good players. Although some of the stories I've heard of them suggest they could be the one and done type. I dont think that is a great recruiting strategy for us long term. And now with the ability of guys to transfer on a whim, that will likely make it even harder for us. You could make the argument that with these new rules, a team that is able to consistently recruit and keep a type of player that fits their particular system, while building a ton of experience as they learn to play together for 4 years, could create a huge advantage over teams full of one and dones or players transferring in and out each year. Even if at a noticeable talent disadvantage. Maybe we should really be looking to recruit players whose first interest is coming to Vandy and getting an education as opposed to guys just looking to play anywhere.

Was telling some buddies the other day that I miss our teams from the 2000s. Thinking back to guys like Frejie, Foster, Beal, Holwerda, Corey Smith, etc... I wonder if they would have likely stayed all four years or would they have bailed at first chance like our existing players have been.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by Foreverhopeful »

When we get good solid players who care about their education (er, Max Evans) half of our fans yowl that they aren't good enough for D1.
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by Ndorefin »

If Pippen returns to college, I would wager there is a 5% chance it will be at Vanderbilt!
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Re: my mini-manifesto - or rant

Post by UltimateVUFan »

Ndorefin wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:39 pm If Pippen returns to college, I would wager there is a 5% chance it will be at Vanderbilt!
Source? I haven’t seen anything official to suggest that Pippen wouldn’t return to VU. Many inferred that his tweet announcement was an implied farewell, but I’m not so sure. Disu’s departure certainly gives one pause. However, it seems odd that Pippen wouldn’t have already announced his intent to transfer. Marcus Carr at Minnesota announced he will test the waters, but entered the transfer portal as his backup plan. Pippen is a very long shot draft prospect according to every projection I’ve seen (not even top 100), so if he intended to transfer, why wouldn’t he go ahead and announce it to garner interest from other programs? I just don’t understand why the negativity towards the kid or the prospect of him returning to VU when all interviews and comments from him and Stackhouse have been positive. He also clearly developed well in his time here. Nobody knows what will happen yet, so not much use in negative comments (but please note, I’m not pumping sunshine either). Time will tell.
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