NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:05 pm
The NBA is killing college basketball, if a player is not commited to stay at least 2 years then forget it. Also the transfer rule is just as bad.
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The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
That goes to my first point (re MLB).mathguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pmThe issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.
The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
So, if Scotty Pippen leaves for the NBA, he will have been a net financial loss to the university?jpmando wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 pm consider the financial obligation made to the EE student, even he received financial aid. Now consider budgets for recruiting, travel, staff, video, dining, uniforms, tutors etc etc etc. for the individual student athlete. That huge disparity is no doubt worth consideration. Not to mention that depleting a team affects all of the others who remain. Not the case if the EE student departs.
I mean you aren't wrong. It's just that its not the NCAA doing it. It "makes sense" that the NBA wants to draft (slightly) older guys who have been observed playing against tougher competition so that they feel like they have a little more certainty in scouting and aren't wasting (as many) 1st round draft picks.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pmThat goes to my first point (re MLB).mathguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm
The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.
I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.
The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
Couldn't the NCAA make it a prerequisite of signing a letter of intent that you stay in school or you have to pay a penalty in order to leave for the pros? Isn't there something like that for those who attend the military academies for a certain number of years? They have to pay the academy back if they leave without graduating.mathguy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:23 pmI mean you aren't wrong. It's just that its not the NCAA doing it. It "makes sense" that the NBA wants to draft (slightly) older guys who have been observed playing against tougher competition so that they feel like they have a little more certainty in scouting and aren't wasting (as many) 1st round draft picks.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pmThat goes to my first point (re MLB).mathguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm
The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.
I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.
The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
The NCAA is stuck with 1-and-done whether they want it or not (read: NOT). The transfer rule they have control over. And sadly, in my opinion, they made the situation worse.
I will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.jpmando wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.
I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
That is an apples and oranges comparison though.alathIN wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 amI will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.jpmando wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.
I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
The idea that you are individually a great attraction that brings huge value to your employer is absurd.
Therefore you have no claim to compensation.
You should have your freedom to change employers circumscribed by arbitrary rules.
This started off with the assertion that Pippen should be barred from transferring because the university spent money on his sneakers and food and if he leaves the university takes a ruinous financial hit. I replied that Pippen/his teammates generate serious revenue for the school and there is no way the university is financially in the red on his time at VU.mathguy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:44 amThat is an apples and oranges comparison though.alathIN wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 amI will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.jpmando wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.
I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
The idea that you are individually a great attraction that brings huge value to your employer is absurd.
Therefore you have no claim to compensation.
You should have your freedom to change employers circumscribed by arbitrary rules.
Part of the premise of sports is the idea of a (somewhat) level playing field. At the pro level, this is the purpose of a salary cap and revenue sharing ... no one wants to see a league where the Yankees get to keep all of their own TV revenue, and spent as much as they want on salary with no penalties, tax, or limits, and then collects all of the best players. I mean, we *mostly* have that now, but the dirty secret of the Yankees is how good a job they've done over the years of developing their own talent and then complementing it with high priced free agents. The game is somewhat rigged in their favor, but their are mechanisms in place to keep this somewhat in check.
At the NCAA level, there needs to be a reason to believe that Vanderbilt can compete with Kentucky. If you get to a place where schools like Vandy can recruit diamonds in the rough, polish them, and then after a 1 year audition, let them say, "Hey, now let me transfer to Kentucky with impunity ... I have a better chance of team success, more exposure for possible draft options, and (depending on where pay-for-play goes) the oppurtunity to market myself better and earn more money in royalties for jersey sales if I go to a school with a bigger fan base" ... well ... suddenly we are rigging the game again.
This is why sports leagues have anti-trust exemptions. There are certain restrictions that they have to accept in order for the competition aspect of the form to work. Telling a student athlete "you can transfer to any school you want, and take classes there immediately, and practice with the team immediately, but the price for this is going to be waiting a bit to play" ... this seems like a reasonable tradeoff for making the sports league work.
An employer in the business world doesn't play by the same rules. If Coca-Cola was able to be successful enough that Pepsi had to go out of business (or nearly so), the response isn't "uh-oh ... we are losing opponents and losing fan interest" ... the response is "GREAT! We cornered the market!"
Totally different situation.
Overall you do make a lot of good points.alathIN wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm
You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.
I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
Pippen, I could see. As for the others -- though I love them as part of the Vanderbilt family -- I have to say that if they transferred to Kentucky or Kansas they would only be playing mopup minutes.
After a few weeks seeing the new transfer rule in action it looks like I was wrong about "buried on the depth chart" being the predominant transfer scenario. Disu and McBride surely weren't worried about PT next season.mathguy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 amOverall you do make a lot of good points.alathIN wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm
You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.
I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
There probably should be a players union in college sports to bargain for certain things ... it would be interesting. Especially if the NCAA insisted that all 300+ DI schools were involved. And how they would split up unions from different sports. It would nice to finally see the 240ish teams have the power instead of the 60ish power conference teams. But that's another story.
As to your second point, I don't know if I agree with your comments about stockpiles of elite recruits. In football, I could look at Alabama and Ohio State and agree readily. But not so much in basketball. Especially as quickly as players move through college to the NBA. There is virtually no college basketball equivalent to having an all-American HS QB redshirting a year until the starter graduates. In college basketball, it's more like "we need to recruit the next stud freshman to replace the guy that we only expect to be here one year".
Pippen hasn't transferred. And despite what others are saying, he hasn't said he was going to if the draft doesn't work out.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:21 amAfter a few weeks seeing the new transfer rule in action it looks like I was wrong about "buried on the depth chart" being the predominant transfer scenario. Disu and McBride surely weren't worried about PT next season.mathguy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 amOverall you do make a lot of good points.alathIN wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm
You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.
I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
There probably should be a players union in college sports to bargain for certain things ... it would be interesting. Especially if the NCAA insisted that all 300+ DI schools were involved. And how they would split up unions from different sports. It would nice to finally see the 240ish teams have the power instead of the 60ish power conference teams. But that's another story.
As to your second point, I don't know if I agree with your comments about stockpiles of elite recruits. In football, I could look at Alabama and Ohio State and agree readily. But not so much in basketball. Especially as quickly as players move through college to the NBA. There is virtually no college basketball equivalent to having an all-American HS QB redshirting a year until the starter graduates. In college basketball, it's more like "we need to recruit the next stud freshman to replace the guy that we only expect to be here one year".
I have said many times on this forum that ALL college sports should be under the baseball rules......step into class and you are here for 3 yrs, after which you can declare for the draft and if you either do not like where you are drafted or cannot come to terms with the team, you can return for your SR season and re-enter the draft after your SR season. Of course if you want to go straight to pros and are good enough to do so, go yonder young talent. Regarding transfers, i do like the old rule of sitting out 1 yr if you transfer, as that acts as a detterant to do so.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pmThat goes to my first point (re MLB).mathguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pmThe issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.alathIN wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.
The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.