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NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

For discussion of Vanderbilt Commodores men's basketball games and recruiting.

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NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by janvandy66 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:05 pm

The NBA is killing college basketball, if a player is not commited to stay at least 2 years then forget it. Also the transfer rule is just as bad.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm

I'd be happier if the NBA was like MLB, with a robust direct-to-pros system for players with no interest in college. Our baseball team is an obvious example of how this system benefits a school with academic value.

Looser transfer rules are bad for fans and maybe team chemistry, but it is good for players who are buried on the depth chart at one school have the option to go actually play somewhere else. Other college students get to transfer whenever they want. Yes, I know they are not part of a kabillion-$ entertainment business... but I don't see that players should be punished compared to other students who have the freedom to change schools at will.
And it's not all bad for fans. We lost McBride and gained an all-big-10 center. I think Vanderbilt comes out ahead in that exchange.

It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by jpmando » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 pm

consider the financial obligation made to the EE student, even he received financial aid. Now consider budgets for recruiting, travel, staff, video, dining, uniforms, tutors etc etc etc. for the individual student athlete. That huge disparity is no doubt worth consideration. Not to mention that depleting a team affects all of the others who remain. Not the case if the EE student departs.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm

alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm
It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.

I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.

The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm

mathguy wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm
alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm
It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.

I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.

The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
That goes to my first point (re MLB).
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:08 pm

jpmando wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 pm
consider the financial obligation made to the EE student, even he received financial aid. Now consider budgets for recruiting, travel, staff, video, dining, uniforms, tutors etc etc etc. for the individual student athlete. That huge disparity is no doubt worth consideration. Not to mention that depleting a team affects all of the others who remain. Not the case if the EE student departs.
So, if Scotty Pippen leaves for the NBA, he will have been a net financial loss to the university?
You have got to be joking.

Show me an EE student who, along with 11 of his buddies, brings in literally millions in revenue to the school.

Vanderbilt did not lose money on Scotty Pippen's expenses. I am quite confident the university came out ahead on that investment.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by vandy05 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:27 pm

Everyone is making really good points on this thread. I just love that things are getting reconsidered at this point. If college sports and the NCAA were set up today, there is no way we would set it up the way it is now. Everything is worth a periodic look to see how changes need to be made. This whole thing with the NCAA and transfers is due for a rehash.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:23 pm

alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm
mathguy wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm

The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.

I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.

The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
That goes to my first point (re MLB).
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
I mean you aren't wrong. It's just that its not the NCAA doing it. It "makes sense" that the NBA wants to draft (slightly) older guys who have been observed playing against tougher competition so that they feel like they have a little more certainty in scouting and aren't wasting (as many) 1st round draft picks.

The NCAA is stuck with 1-and-done whether they want it or not (read: NOT). The transfer rule they have control over. And sadly, in my opinion, they made the situation worse.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by jpmando » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm

It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.

I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by vandy05 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:06 am

mathguy wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:23 pm
alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm
mathguy wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm

The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.

I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.

The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
That goes to my first point (re MLB).
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
I mean you aren't wrong. It's just that its not the NCAA doing it. It "makes sense" that the NBA wants to draft (slightly) older guys who have been observed playing against tougher competition so that they feel like they have a little more certainty in scouting and aren't wasting (as many) 1st round draft picks.

The NCAA is stuck with 1-and-done whether they want it or not (read: NOT). The transfer rule they have control over. And sadly, in my opinion, they made the situation worse.
Couldn't the NCAA make it a prerequisite of signing a letter of intent that you stay in school or you have to pay a penalty in order to leave for the pros? Isn't there something like that for those who attend the military academies for a certain number of years? They have to pay the academy back if they leave without graduating.

I wouldn't actually be in favor of the NCAA doing that, but I don't know that they are totally helpless and could be more assertive. But my guess is that being more assertive would cause them to get even fewer uber talented players onto college teams. Those players would choose an alternative if they knew they were going to have to stay in school or face some kind of penalty. There would also be lots of downstream impacts of putting those kinds of clauses in letters of intent related to employment and compensation. So despite the fan perception, I think the NCAA sees one and done as its best option in the current environment and probably has not desire to change it.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 am

jpmando wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm
It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.

I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
I will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.
The idea that you are individually a great attraction that brings huge value to your employer is absurd.
Therefore you have no claim to compensation.
You should have your freedom to change employers circumscribed by arbitrary rules.

I said that Scotty Pippen and 11 of his buddies bring revenue to the university.
I do think that the basketball program's revenue depends, at least to some extent, on having players. With no players, ticket and TV revenue just might possibly suffer.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:44 am

alathIN wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 am
jpmando wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm
It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.

I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
I will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.
The idea that you are individually a great attraction that brings huge value to your employer is absurd.
Therefore you have no claim to compensation.
You should have your freedom to change employers circumscribed by arbitrary rules.
That is an apples and oranges comparison though.

Part of the premise of sports is the idea of a (somewhat) level playing field. At the pro level, this is the purpose of a salary cap and revenue sharing ... no one wants to see a league where the Yankees get to keep all of their own TV revenue, and spent as much as they want on salary with no penalties, tax, or limits, and then collects all of the best players. I mean, we *mostly* have that now, but the dirty secret of the Yankees is how good a job they've done over the years of developing their own talent and then complementing it with high priced free agents. The game is somewhat rigged in their favor, but their are mechanisms in place to keep this somewhat in check.

At the NCAA level, there needs to be a reason to believe that Vanderbilt can compete with Kentucky. If you get to a place where schools like Vandy can recruit diamonds in the rough, polish them, and then after a 1 year audition, let them say, "Hey, now let me transfer to Kentucky with impunity ... I have a better chance of team success, more exposure for possible draft options, and (depending on where pay-for-play goes) the oppurtunity to market myself better and earn more money in royalties for jersey sales if I go to a school with a bigger fan base" ... well ... suddenly we are rigging the game again.

This is why sports leagues have anti-trust exemptions. There are certain restrictions that they have to accept in order for the competition aspect of the form to work. Telling a student athlete "you can transfer to any school you want, and take classes there immediately, and practice with the team immediately, but the price for this is going to be waiting a bit to play" ... this seems like a reasonable tradeoff for making the sports league work.

An employer in the business world doesn't play by the same rules. If Coca-Cola was able to be successful enough that Pepsi had to go out of business (or nearly so), the response isn't "uh-oh ... we are losing opponents and losing fan interest" ... the response is "GREAT! We cornered the market!"

Totally different situation.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Ndorefin » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:25 pm

The NCAA has far less authority than most think. At this,point, they are basically being dictated to by the Power 5 conferences, who in turn have to toe the line that’s set by the dominant schools. The NCAA realizes if they attempt to exert too much pressure, the Power 5 conferences will form their own Association. In my opinion, this is most evident in basketball which is why we see Kansas, UNC, Duke, LSU, Ky, etc. rarely getting punished for the most egregious transgressions.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm

mathguy wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:44 am
alathIN wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 am
jpmando wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:47 pm
It can never be quantified, but how exactly, did Scotty Pippen bring in huge revenue for our very mediocre team? Did we get significantly more games on TV? Did we get to the NCAA tournament? Did ESPN do a whole lot more coverage? Maybe a 30-30? or 6? Are there a whole bunch more kids running around with Pippen jerseys than , say, Shittu jerseys? or Saben Lee jerseys? I doubt that.

I think it is quite absurd to feed the idea that these individual players are, by themselves, great attractions that bring huge value to the University. That ,in fact, is one the major problems with the system as it stands in the first place. Because in our case they are not. Perhaps if we were Duke, Kentucky, even Gonzaga. But we are not.
I will go way out on a limb and guess that you are replaceable in your job.
The idea that you are individually a great attraction that brings huge value to your employer is absurd.
Therefore you have no claim to compensation.
You should have your freedom to change employers circumscribed by arbitrary rules.
That is an apples and oranges comparison though.

Part of the premise of sports is the idea of a (somewhat) level playing field. At the pro level, this is the purpose of a salary cap and revenue sharing ... no one wants to see a league where the Yankees get to keep all of their own TV revenue, and spent as much as they want on salary with no penalties, tax, or limits, and then collects all of the best players. I mean, we *mostly* have that now, but the dirty secret of the Yankees is how good a job they've done over the years of developing their own talent and then complementing it with high priced free agents. The game is somewhat rigged in their favor, but their are mechanisms in place to keep this somewhat in check.

At the NCAA level, there needs to be a reason to believe that Vanderbilt can compete with Kentucky. If you get to a place where schools like Vandy can recruit diamonds in the rough, polish them, and then after a 1 year audition, let them say, "Hey, now let me transfer to Kentucky with impunity ... I have a better chance of team success, more exposure for possible draft options, and (depending on where pay-for-play goes) the oppurtunity to market myself better and earn more money in royalties for jersey sales if I go to a school with a bigger fan base" ... well ... suddenly we are rigging the game again.

This is why sports leagues have anti-trust exemptions. There are certain restrictions that they have to accept in order for the competition aspect of the form to work. Telling a student athlete "you can transfer to any school you want, and take classes there immediately, and practice with the team immediately, but the price for this is going to be waiting a bit to play" ... this seems like a reasonable tradeoff for making the sports league work.

An employer in the business world doesn't play by the same rules. If Coca-Cola was able to be successful enough that Pepsi had to go out of business (or nearly so), the response isn't "uh-oh ... we are losing opponents and losing fan interest" ... the response is "GREAT! We cornered the market!"

Totally different situation.
This started off with the assertion that Pippen should be barred from transferring because the university spent money on his sneakers and food and if he leaves the university takes a ruinous financial hit. I replied that Pippen/his teammates generate serious revenue for the school and there is no way the university is financially in the red on his time at VU.
Then the reply was no, Pippen doesn't personally generate any revenue - and I replied that like most of us, he's a contributing member of a team that generates revenue and if the standard is that you have to single-handedly generate value then almost none of us meet that standard. I certainly could not generate revenue without the nurses and support staff and technicians and billing-coding specialists who work with me - but still I am, rightly I believe, treated as a revenue generator.
For the argument I was responding to, it's a prefectly germane example.

Now you're shifting the discussion by saying he should be barred from transferring in order to preserve the competitiveness of the game.
I admit that the example of me and you and most of our professions isn't comparable to the interests of a sports league in maintaining competitiveness - but I never used the example in that context.

You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.

I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 am

alathIN wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm

You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.

I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
Overall you do make a lot of good points.

There probably should be a players union in college sports to bargain for certain things ... it would be interesting. Especially if the NCAA insisted that all 300+ DI schools were involved. And how they would split up unions from different sports. It would nice to finally see the 240ish teams have the power instead of the 60ish power conference teams. But that's another story.

As to your second point, I don't know if I agree with your comments about stockpiles of elite recruits. In football, I could look at Alabama and Ohio State and agree readily. But not so much in basketball. Especially as quickly as players move through college to the NBA. There is virtually no college basketball equivalent to having an all-American HS QB redshirting a year until the starter graduates. In college basketball, it's more like "we need to recruit the next stud freshman to replace the guy that we only expect to be here one year".
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Versus75 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:00 pm

alathIN wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm
... if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas ....
Pippen, I could see. As for the others -- though I love them as part of the Vanderbilt family -- I have to say that if they transferred to Kentucky or Kansas they would only be playing mopup minutes.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by alathIN » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:21 am

mathguy wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 am
alathIN wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm

You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.

I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
Overall you do make a lot of good points.

There probably should be a players union in college sports to bargain for certain things ... it would be interesting. Especially if the NCAA insisted that all 300+ DI schools were involved. And how they would split up unions from different sports. It would nice to finally see the 240ish teams have the power instead of the 60ish power conference teams. But that's another story.

As to your second point, I don't know if I agree with your comments about stockpiles of elite recruits. In football, I could look at Alabama and Ohio State and agree readily. But not so much in basketball. Especially as quickly as players move through college to the NBA. There is virtually no college basketball equivalent to having an all-American HS QB redshirting a year until the starter graduates. In college basketball, it's more like "we need to recruit the next stud freshman to replace the guy that we only expect to be here one year".
After a few weeks seeing the new transfer rule in action it looks like I was wrong about "buried on the depth chart" being the predominant transfer scenario. Disu and McBride surely weren't worried about PT next season.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by commadore » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:20 am

alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:21 am
mathguy wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 am
alathIN wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:46 pm

You're right that sports leagues have an interest in competitiveness - and in part to maintain this they operate with monopoly powers that would ordinarily be illegal. But they also have players' associations to represent the players' interests. There is no such protection for college athletes. If there were, they would - like the NFLPA - negotiate an agreement with the league that would hammer out a compromise between player protections and interests of the league.

I am not at all sure that easing transfer restrictions is a net harm to Vanderbilt or to competitiveness.
The elite teams have stockpiles of high level recruits who get stuck in depth chart logjams. It's not just that they have the best players playing for them - they also hoard talent in their rosters, effectively sequestering those players away from the competition.
Allowing those players to transfer out for playing time should tend to increase competitiveness.
To the extent that there is conference or NCAA resistance to transfers, it's more to burnish their upscale properties like Kentucky - not to enhance Vanderbilt's ability to beat Kentucky.
However, if Max Evans or Clevon Brown or Ejike Obinna - or even Scotty Pippen - winds up playing for Kentucky or Kansas I will have to reconsider.
Overall you do make a lot of good points.

There probably should be a players union in college sports to bargain for certain things ... it would be interesting. Especially if the NCAA insisted that all 300+ DI schools were involved. And how they would split up unions from different sports. It would nice to finally see the 240ish teams have the power instead of the 60ish power conference teams. But that's another story.

As to your second point, I don't know if I agree with your comments about stockpiles of elite recruits. In football, I could look at Alabama and Ohio State and agree readily. But not so much in basketball. Especially as quickly as players move through college to the NBA. There is virtually no college basketball equivalent to having an all-American HS QB redshirting a year until the starter graduates. In college basketball, it's more like "we need to recruit the next stud freshman to replace the guy that we only expect to be here one year".
After a few weeks seeing the new transfer rule in action it looks like I was wrong about "buried on the depth chart" being the predominant transfer scenario. Disu and McBride surely weren't worried about PT next season.
Pippen hasn't transferred. And despite what others are saying, he hasn't said he was going to if the draft doesn't work out.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by OldDude » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:51 pm

I would be surprised if Pippen was drafted at all high (though I am no expert at all ) though firmly believe that another college year working on his 3 shot and getting exposure and extensive experience could make him a more serious target next draft. The young man is GOOD just needs more time. I hope and pray that he returns to VU as he would be the central figure in a scheme where he already is experienced and comfortable - no learning curve. Transferring to another school just doesn't seem the most wise choice for him and certainly a big loss for us.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by cjdore » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:38 pm

alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm
mathguy wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 pm
alathIN wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm
It will be disappointing if we lose Pippen, but seriously, if a scholarship EE student decided to quit school and make millions in Silicon Valley, we would have no cause to fault him or her for that. I do not see any legitimate principle by which the EE student should have freedom that the athlete should be denied that of option.
The issue at hand, ultimately, is related to whether or not we still believe athletes are student-athletes.

I'm very in favor of sitting out a year for transfers. I'm very NOT okay in the ability of coaches to "block" transfers in any way. Students make a commitment. If they want to leave, fine. They still get that year of eligibility back. But it forces them to really consider if leaving schools is worth it. If they are student-athletes, there is no reason this should be a problem.

The EE student taking a job isn't the issue. I don't fault Pippen for getting paid (if he actually gets paid). The problem with the NBA rule would be the kids that are more or less forced to go college, even though their skill set is good enough to already earn the living. Suppose instead your hypothetical EE student already had the tools to make millions in SIlicon Valley, but IBM, HP, Intel, and Apple were all forbidden due to collective bargaining from making a job offer when the kid was in high school. So he was instead urged to go to Vandy, major in EE for a year, take a few classes, and then leave. How do you think that kid might feel about his professors? How do you think his professors (especially those in elective courses) would feel about this kid? The NBA is making a mockery of universities. It's sad to me.
That goes to my first point (re MLB).
Barring players from going straight to the pros makes no more sense than barring them from transferring.
I have said many times on this forum that ALL college sports should be under the baseball rules......step into class and you are here for 3 yrs, after which you can declare for the draft and if you either do not like where you are drafted or cannot come to terms with the team, you can return for your SR season and re-enter the draft after your SR season. Of course if you want to go straight to pros and are good enough to do so, go yonder young talent. Regarding transfers, i do like the old rule of sitting out 1 yr if you transfer, as that acts as a detterant to do so.
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