NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by vandylifer »

I was just talking about this on the way home today. Can anyone EXPLAIN the NCAA rational of NOT DOING basketball like Baseball. Go pro out of high school or come to school and stay for 3 years. There MUST be some sort of rational reason that could be shared/explained. Can anyone enlighten me/us?
"Basketball can't be treated like baseball because . . . . . . . . . . . "


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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by egbertsouse »

vandylifer wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:37 pm I was just talking about this on the way home today. Can anyone EXPLAIN the NCAA rational of NOT DOING basketball like Baseball. Go pro out of high school or come to school and stay for 3 years. There MUST be some sort of rational reason that could be shared/explained. Can anyone enlighten me/us?
"Basketball can't be treated like baseball because . . . . . . . . . . . "
It's not up to the NCAA. The NBA makes their rules for drafting players and MLB sets their rules.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by UltimateVUFan »

egbertsouse wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:51 pm
vandylifer wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:37 pm I was just talking about this on the way home today. Can anyone EXPLAIN the NCAA rational of NOT DOING basketball like Baseball. Go pro out of high school or come to school and stay for 3 years. There MUST be some sort of rational reason that could be shared/explained. Can anyone enlighten me/us?
"Basketball can't be treated like baseball because . . . . . . . . . . . "
It's not up to the NCAA. The NBA makes their rules for drafting players and MLB sets their rules.
The NCAA is also responsible for setting their own rules. They don’t owe the NBA anything. So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.

Edit: I understand that the NBA sets the parameters for who is eligible and it’s different than MLB/NFL. My point is, the NCAA could absolutely make kids sign a contract that states they will sign for 3 years or not sign at all. I know that the penalty for breaching that contract would be negated by a large draft day pay day, but it would still make players think twice and not make a mockery of the premise of a “student athlete.” NCAA doesn’t want to do that, though, because the almighty dollar is all they care about. As evidenced by pretty much everything they do.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Go Vandy! »

UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm... So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.
Well, at least until they got sued & lost. If the NCAA started requiring athletes to stay in school beyond the point they are eligible for the pros, they would just forego college altogether.

Anyone who wants things to go back to the way they were 50 years ago is going to be more disappointed with each passing year.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by UltimateVUFan »

Go Vandy! wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:49 pm
UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm... So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.
Well, at least until they got sued & lost. If the NCAA started requiring athletes to stay in school beyond the point they are eligible for the pros, they would just forego college altogether.

Anyone who wants things to go back to the way they were 50 years ago is going to be more disappointed with each passing year.
That’s the thing, though - I don’t mind seeing non-student athletes forego college altogether. I don’t want things to regress 50 years, but changes of the last 5-10 years are not in the interest of amateur athletics, IMO.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Jason94 »

UltimateVUFan wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:24 am
Go Vandy! wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:49 pm
UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm... So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.
Well, at least until they got sued & lost. If the NCAA started requiring athletes to stay in school beyond the point they are eligible for the pros, they would just forego college altogether.

Anyone who wants things to go back to the way they were 50 years ago is going to be more disappointed with each passing year.
That’s the thing, though - I don’t mind seeing non-student athletes forego college altogether. I don’t want things to regress 50 years, but changes of the last 5-10 years are not in the interest of amateur athletics, IMO.
I agree with this - the idea that every great athlete is also going to be an academic fit for college is a farce and always has been. That suggests that the a venn diagram between college football and basketball players and academically eligible individuals would have the circle of the former fit perfectly inside the circle of the latter, instead of some amount of overlap, which is what the reality is for pretty much every other sub-group of individuals. And that ignores individual inclinations, and that not everyone is interested in college education even if they are academically suited for it.

Most people do NOT need to go to college, and we need to stop encouraging them to waste their money and go into debt for something that adds no value to their life, and in many cases can actually hinder them.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by egbertsouse »

UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm
egbertsouse wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:51 pm
vandylifer wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:37 pm I was just talking about this on the way home today. Can anyone EXPLAIN the NCAA rational of NOT DOING basketball like Baseball. Go pro out of high school or come to school and stay for 3 years. There MUST be some sort of rational reason that could be shared/explained. Can anyone enlighten me/us?
"Basketball can't be treated like baseball because . . . . . . . . . . . "
It's not up to the NCAA. The NBA makes their rules for drafting players and MLB sets their rules.
The NCAA is also responsible for setting their own rules. They don’t owe the NBA anything. So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.

Edit: I understand that the NBA sets the parameters for who is eligible and it’s different than MLB/NFL. My point is, the NCAA could absolutely make kids sign a contract that states they will sign for 3 years or not sign at all. I know that the penalty for breaching that contract would be negated by a large draft day pay day, but it would still make players think twice and not make a mockery of the premise of a “student athlete.” NCAA doesn’t want to do that, though, because the almighty dollar is all they care about. As evidenced by pretty much everything they do.
The NCAA cannot force anyone to stay in school and play basketball for little to no $. It ain't going to happen.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by vandy05 »

The NCAA could write up letters of intent that require students to stay for three years if they wanted to do that. But a lot of kids would bypass it and 90% (if not higher) of those kids shouldn't be bypassing it. But I've said before on the board that I think the NCAA likely prefers the current scenario to one where they are the ones forcing kids to stay. Scholarships are year to year. This could open the door for schools to be required to make long-term commitments on the scholarships, which is no small thing.

And is it possible that potential legal trouble could actually come from the NBA. They want those guys to go to college so they can weed out the flops (someone would've drafted Shittu straight out of high school but he went undrafted because of his year in college), but only for a year. After that they want them. the NBAPA would probably want to keep the kids in school, but who knows.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by LawoftheWest »

It's not up to the NCAA. The NBA makes their rules for drafting players and MLB sets their rules.
[/quote]

The NCAA is also responsible for setting their own rules. They don’t owe the NBA anything. So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.

Edit: I understand that the NBA sets the parameters for who is eligible and it’s different than MLB/NFL. My point is, the NCAA could absolutely make kids sign a contract that states they will sign for 3 years or not sign at all. I know that the penalty for breaching that contract would be negated by a large draft day pay day, but it would still make players think twice and not make a mockery of the premise of a “student athlete.” NCAA doesn’t want to do that, though, because the almighty dollar is all they care about. As evidenced by pretty much everything they do.
[/quote]


There are many problems with making kids sign a contract like that.

1. The Justice Department might sue on antitrust grounds - restraint of trade. The NCAA is being sued for several other things. They are not held in high esteem by sports fans and others, so the NCAA could spend a lot of money defending it, only to lose. Then, maybe no NCAA. Some would say great, but what would follow? The big-5 form a new conference? It would still be subject to the antitrust laws.

2. The NBA could counter by creating its own minor league system, much like baseball, but with less teams. They are already siphoning off a few of the top players to the G league. A minor league system would probably not work in football, where a few extra years are needed to gain strength. The minor league system is what makes the baseball restrictions workable, by providing an alternative, albeit with low pay at the lower levels.

3. What happens when a player flunks out of school, intentionally or otherwise. That player might sue to invalidate the "contract" and probably win. It could be called an "adhesion" contract that is not enforceable. Once players start winning those cases, the whole system blows up and is not enforceable.

4. Rather than be bound to a college for 3 years, more players could head overseas, like a few have already done.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by cjdore »

egbertsouse wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:23 am
UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm
egbertsouse wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:51 pm

It's not up to the NCAA. The NBA makes their rules for drafting players and MLB sets their rules.
The NCAA is also responsible for setting their own rules. They don’t owe the NBA anything. So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.

Edit: I understand that the NBA sets the parameters for who is eligible and it’s different than MLB/NFL. My point is, the NCAA could absolutely make kids sign a contract that states they will sign for 3 years or not sign at all. I know that the penalty for breaching that contract would be negated by a large draft day pay day, but it would still make players think twice and not make a mockery of the premise of a “student athlete.” NCAA doesn’t want to do that, though, because the almighty dollar is all they care about. As evidenced by pretty much everything they do.
The NCAA cannot force anyone to stay in school and play basketball for little to no $. It ain't going to happen.
If the NCAA can do it in Baseball they sure as heck can do it in Basketball......afterall the baseball rule is in the best interest of students as each can go thru draft twice. If the nCAA was indeed interested in student athletes they would adopt this rule for ALL sports!!!
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Go Vandy! »

Once again, the out-of-high-school or 3 years is NOT an NCAA rule. It is MLB's. And college baseball players- as well as any athlete- can leave after 2 years, 1 year, or 1 day, and the NCAA can't do anything about it.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by egbertsouse »

cjdore wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:04 pm
egbertsouse wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:23 am
UltimateVUFan wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:04 pm

The NCAA is also responsible for setting their own rules. They don’t owe the NBA anything. So yes, if the NCAA wanted to adhere to those same rules for basketball, they could do so.

Edit: I understand that the NBA sets the parameters for who is eligible and it’s different than MLB/NFL. My point is, the NCAA could absolutely make kids sign a contract that states they will sign for 3 years or not sign at all. I know that the penalty for breaching that contract would be negated by a large draft day pay day, but it would still make players think twice and not make a mockery of the premise of a “student athlete.” NCAA doesn’t want to do that, though, because the almighty dollar is all they care about. As evidenced by pretty much everything they do.
The NCAA cannot force anyone to stay in school and play basketball for little to no $. It ain't going to happen.
If the NCAA can do it in Baseball they sure as heck can do it in Basketball......afterall the baseball rule is in the best interest of students as each can go thru draft twice. If the nCAA was indeed interested in student athletes they would adopt this rule for ALL sports!!!
Read LawoftheWest's and Go Vandy!'s posts.
Factor in also the potential difficulties of enforcing a "contract" signed by a minor if the recruit has not reached the age of majority.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by cjdore »

egbertsouse wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:02 pm
cjdore wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:04 pm
egbertsouse wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:23 am

The NCAA cannot force anyone to stay in school and play basketball for little to no $. It ain't going to happen.
If the NCAA can do it in Baseball they sure as heck can do it in Basketball......afterall the baseball rule is in the best interest of students as each can go thru draft twice. If the nCAA was indeed interested in student athletes they would adopt this rule for ALL sports!!!
Read LawoftheWest's and Go Vandy!'s posts.
Factor in also the potential difficulties of enforcing a "contract" signed by a minor if the recruit has not reached the age of majority.
None of those factors seem to affect baseball players.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by Go Vandy! »

The only reason baseball players either go to MLB out of high school or stay 3 years is because of the MLB rule. If the NCAA had never existed, the situation would be EXACTLY the same.

THE NCAA NOT ONLY HAS NO SAY NOW BUT WILL NEVER HAVE ANY SAY ABOUT HOW LONG SUTDENT-ATHLETES STAY IN SCHOOL.

I know you're never going to get this. But it's the truth.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by egbertsouse »

cjdore wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:44 am
egbertsouse wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:02 pm
cjdore wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:04 pm

If the NCAA can do it in Baseball they sure as heck can do it in Basketball......afterall the baseball rule is in the best interest of students as each can go thru draft twice. If the nCAA was indeed interested in student athletes they would adopt this rule for ALL sports!!!
Read LawoftheWest's and Go Vandy!'s posts.
Factor in also the potential difficulties of enforcing a "contract" signed by a minor if the recruit has not reached the age of majority.
None of those factors seem to affect baseball players.
Do you really not understand that the NBA and MLB set their own rules for when individuals are eligible to be drafted, that those rules control how long the best players in those sports choose to stay in college, and that those rules are fundamentally different for the NBA and MLB?
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy »

UltimateVUFan wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:24 am
That’s the thing, though - I don’t mind seeing non-student athletes forego college altogether. I don’t want things to regress 50 years, but changes of the last 5-10 years are not in the interest of amateur athletics, IMO.
^^ This.

30 years ago I cringed at the ways I knew Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant were about to change the prospect pipeline. Heck, I cringed when Chris Webber ushered in an era of it being more common for guys to leave after their Sophomore year, when most good players only left 1 year early (yes, there were a few others before him that left after soph. year ... but it seemed to change after Webber).

Now?

After a decade or two of1-and-done I actually cheered when I read that 3 of the top-20 national prospects signed with G-League teams instead of colleges.

If guys are going to stay in college for only 1 year, I'd rather them skip college altogether. In baseball, college is a pathway to MLB, but there is also a minor league system and teams develop their own guys. That is, MLB doesn't "need" college baseball.

In basketball, there is essentially no minor league system (though they are trying with the G-League). This means the NCAA BB is inherently coopted by the NBA, and flooded with guys that have no actual interest in being students. That's a problem to me. I'm very OK these days with those guys skipping college ball altogether.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy »

Don't know much about this, but I found this ESPN article interesting:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/314 ... ources-say

I hope that this league has some sort of plan in place to make sure these HS juniors can earn a HS diploma or at least a GED during their stay ... there is a fairly long and (in)glorious history of highly rated prospects that flame out somewhere between HS and the NBA.

Still, I like the principle of having a league where these types of guys can play without making a mockery of colleges as educational institutions. Isn't that essentially how club teams or low level pro leagues work in Europe?
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

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mathguy wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:22 am Don't know much about this, but I found this ESPN article interesting:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/314 ... ources-say

I hope that this league has some sort of plan in place to make sure these HS juniors can earn a HS diploma or at least a GED during their stay ... there is a fairly long and (in)glorious history of highly rated prospects that flame out somewhere between HS and the NBA.

Still, I like the principle of having a league where these types of guys can play without making a mockery of colleges as educational institutions. Isn't that essentially how club teams or low level pro leagues work in Europe?
Its how club teams work in every other country except pretty much the United States. Australia, Europe, South America. They call them academies and have them for all sorts of sports. We have them in some form or fashion with tennis being a very prominent example here.

So much that is done in the United States is literally unique to our country. Its not always wrong, but sometimes we lack perspective.

I too would like for these kids to get a HS diploma or GED, but I'll admit to questioning how much that would even help them in the long run. I don't know the answer on that.

And I think its the leagues and the colleges themselves that are making a mockery out of colleges as educational institutions, not the players. The players are the kids in the equation and are following the path available to them. The leagues and the colleges are the adults and I hold them accountable for letting things get to this point.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by mathguy »

So much ... I'll try to comment in red.
vandy05 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:58 am
Its how club teams work in every other country except pretty much the United States. Australia, Europe, South America. They call them academies and have them for all sorts of sports. We have them in some form or fashion with tennis being a very prominent example here. I thought so. I have a former colleague that left my school to teach at an athletic academy. Not sure if they had a specific sport they specialized in, but the goal was definitely to get kids a degree while allowing them to hyperspecialize in their sport.

So much that is done in the United States is literally unique to our country. Its not always wrong, but sometimes we lack perspective. Agreed. I'd go further on this, but this could so easily turn in the kind of directions that got the coffee shop closed. But I definitely agree.

I too would like for these kids to get a HS diploma or GED, but I'll admit to questioning how much that would even help them in the long run. I don't know the answer on that. I think how much it would help would depend on the kid. If this #3 prospect in the junior class becomes an NBA lottery pick and spends 12 or 15 years in the league, then not much. On the other hand, if this #12 prospect in the junior class finds out that other elite players can expose holes in his game, he spends three years trying to fix them, but can't, ends up being a 2nd round pick that gets cut in training camp, and bounces around European leagues making $100k/year for 3 years before realizing that even there he's mediocre, and the frustration of no longer being "good" at what he's best at eats at him so much he needs to quit for his mental health at age 24. Then, you know, having a HS diploma is certainly better than not having one. Rare cases, but they happen. Remind me to tell you about the case of Nicole Kaczmarski some time. Was the #1 can't miss HS women's player in the country rounds about 2000 ... last I heard she was about 30 years old and waiting tables to pay the bills while taking nursing school classes. It happens.

And I think its the leagues and the colleges themselves that are making a mockery out of colleges as educational institutions, not the players. The players are the kids in the equation and are following the path available to them. The leagues and the colleges are the adults and I hold them accountable for letting things get to this point. This is going to be me splitting hairs. I do think the players are making a mockery of the universities. For all the reasons you point out though, I don't blame them for doing so, nor do I think they are alone in the endeavor. The league and the colleges themselves certainly deserve their share of the blame ... more of it than the players to be sure as leagues and colleges *could* choose to put an end to it ... but don't.
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Re: NBA & Transfer rules are killing college sports

Post by OldDude »

Go Vandy! wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:32 pm The only reason baseball players either go to MLB out of high school or stay 3 years is because of the MLB rule. If the NCAA had never existed, the situation would be EXACTLY the same.

THE NCAA NOT ONLY HAS NO SAY NOW BUT WILL NEVER HAVE ANY SAY ABOUT HOW LONG SUTDENT-ATHLETES STAY IN SCHOOL.

I know you're never going to get this. But it's the truth.
Gosh, you're no fun ! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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