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THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

For discussion of Vanderbilt Commodores men's basketball games and recruiting.

Moderators: kerrigjl, BrentVU, jfgogold, NateSY, KarenYates, Vandyman74, roanoke, VandyWhit

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THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by vandyandy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:11 pm

This is unbelievable and unacceptable we are 0-10 and may not win a game (maybe Arkansas at home). Is this going to continue and for how long. Do we not have the players to compete, is it the coaching? How is this going to be fixed because we had a good basketball tradition for many years and now we are at the bottom of the SEC and the country. There has to be some big changes made to at least try to get back to respectably again.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Nashmann » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:02 am

We do not currently have the talent to compete. The only problem with the coaches is not so much their coaching but their player selection. They made some choices for what they thought was a quick fix and turned out the transfers they allowed in were not up to SEC par. That coupled with Garland going down and Shittu not as good as advertised has led to current problems. Evans seems to have regressed as well. Lee can play really well most times but at other times kills us. Nesmith is a baller but doesn't realize all he can do yet as a freshman. Yanni has really started to come along learning his role as a rebounder. Brown is playing really good defense and rebounding. We just don't have the offensive players required to play well. Too many mistakes and very poor free throw shooting. Mix all this with some horrible last-minute calls against us is a perfect losing storm. Even Toye has played much better.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by alwaysvu » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:48 am

Truth of the matter is we don't have the players ,Vanderbilt has always had good shooters but really we don't have good shooters most players can't shoot at all and the coaching needs to improve we don't know how to take a charge we go out of control in the lane and run over people half the time. We always had to go to Guy somebody we know that if nobody else is hitting they can take it and score points for us , We don't have that player
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by dore43 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:49 am

1 - CBD is in his third year and we still have no offensive identity whatsoever. We got some more crisp ball movement and did well in transition v. Alabama, but that rarely happens. Our offense is some form of "Positionless" basketball and we work the ball around the perimeter for 20 seconds before even looking for a shot. And so many shots are defended well and low percentage, the ones that do go in are unassisted, Most good teams run their offense with a purpose on every possession. If we had some form of offensive identity - we could recruit to the system. We're so easy for opponents to scout.
2 - We are a horrendous free throw shooting team - which is not CBD's fault. We can't close out a game like that.
3 - CBD's talent identification and player development has been consistently poor. I have a feeling we'll have three transfers out of the program at the end of the year. While we don't have the players - we don't even have a system for them... Yanni is one of the few exceptions. If he can develop a three-point shot in the offseason, he will be difficult to guard. Nesmith was a tremendous get and a legitimate NBA prospect in time. Hopefully, this staff can develop him.
4 - We have no go-to player other than Saben - and Missouri made an adjustment of preventing him from getting to the rim in the second half the other night. There's not much else he can do. He has a flat three-pointer and for as much as he gets to the line, he's not very good there. He and Simi are both easy to draw charges on or at least flop and try to sell it. Perhaps Nesmith can become a go-to player in time.
5 - This is the deepest and most talented I can remember the SEC ever being. So many good coaches. That doesn't help either.
6 - And just little things - we don't take charges, we commit atrocious traveling violations, illegal screens, push offs by our guard, we sometimes don't get the ball in point guards hands in transition, etc. Stuff that should have been addressed long ago.
7. Our communication can be poor defensively. Note all the Isaiah Joe threes - on one of them, another player was triple teamed. I'm not sure what we're trying to defensively either. I think the goal was with Garland for everything to go into transition - but he's gone.... try something else. Whether that's on the players or CBD, I'm not sure.
8 - It also would be nice if CBD would work the officials better (SEC has a ton of whiny head coaches) to buy a call or get T'ed up defending a player after a bad call. He'd rather clap and say "Get a Stop"

I will give the team a lot of credit for not packing it in. They made a hell of a run when it looked like Alabama was going to open a 25 point lead.

Also Clevon, Yanni and Toye are playing their butts off. All three have earned more playing time --- at this point what do we have to lose --- other than just more games. Matt Ryan is just as good of a defender sitting in a chair on the sideline as he is on the court. I'm not even sure what Moyer's role is when he's out there --- he may not even know himself. There's no sense to play him much.

Presuming CBD is back, we need to load up on Grad Transfers who can get into our master's programs. I don't even care what conference. If they can either hit threes at this level, or a pass first point guard, or 5 fouls under the basket it would be beneficial. It's asking way too much of Pippen, Jr. and Disu to contribute significantly their freshman seasons. Crowley is by far the most college ready.

The one positive thing I will say for this staff is nobody outworks them on the recruiting trail.

I could go on and on --- but for whichever coach inevitably follows CBD in the future, they will inherit a heck of a mess. If he and his staff weren't all genuinely nice people who you'd want your daughter to marry - this regime would be over at the end of the year.

MODS: PLEASE NOTE I AM WITHIN THE RULES AND NOT CALLING FOR ANY FIRING
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by dore74 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:57 am

Amen 43, well said.
PS we are years away from being “good” again regardless of who is HC next year
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by CrimeDore » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:29 am

I’ve been following Vandy basketball since the late 1980s, and I’ve never seen the program in such horrible condition.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by VUgearhead » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:36 am

I believe this group of players has talent. But what I have seen in the games this year is IMHO a complete lack of direction and utilization of such. I am now convinced that this 'positionless' philosophy of CBD's simply does not work. Maybe it is because the team is so young, but I don't think so. They may gain experience and get better, but I think this offense is too easily defensible to be productive. Coach had an experienced squad last year, and they did no better.

I also think that we need a much stronger presence in the paint on offense. I have yet to see Simi outplay the other teams' bigs to gain position to even consistently receive a pass on the interior, much less make a scoring play on offense other than through transition or on a put back. Until we develop an inside presence, the rest of the team will not see many open shots from the outside.

I would also like to see someone other than Saben drive into the lane. Don't Toye or Nesmith have any ballhandling skills to at least start pressuring the other teams interior defenders?
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Commodoredave » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:28 am

We have 3 legitimate SEC level players- two freshmen and a sophomore- and the role player types are being put into positions where they need to do more than give us a solid 10 minutes.
The coaching has been lacking, we have suffered some bad breaks, and the opponents have made every shot at the critical juncture of the game while we missed free throws or turned it over. Add it all up and 0-10 in a season we entered with as much excitement as any in quite some time.
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I've sworn off drinking beer and ale until ...

Post by Versus75 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:53 pm

... the 'Dores win another game.

In related news: The Kentucky bourbon industry is booming.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by vujoe » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:51 pm

CDB is not missing the free throws and wide open shots!
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by EllistonVU » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:13 pm

vujoe wrote:CDB is not missing the free throws and wide open shots!
Skinner, Dobbs, Newton, Fogler, VBK, Stallings... they all had guys who at times missed free throws and wide open shots. Yet none of them went 0-18 in the SEC. None of them had a 20 loss overall season. As a matter of fact, VBK had two twenty win seasons and a 19 win season and got fired. Think about that.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Jason94 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:16 pm

EllistonVU wrote:
vujoe wrote:CDB is not missing the free throws and wide open shots!
Skinner, Dobbs, Newton, Fogler, VBK, Stallings... they all had guys who at times missed free throws and wide open shots. Yet none of them went 0-18 in the SEC. None of them had a 20 loss overall season. As a matter of fact, VBK had two twenty win seasons and a 19 win season and got fired. Think about that.
Why does one have to think of it? When a coach inherits Billy McCaffery, Chris Lawson, Dan Hall, Ronnie Mac, Frank Seckar at several others off of arguably the best Vanderbilt team in the last 40 seasons, one of those 20 win seasons was really gifted to CVBK, and even you have to admit it was only a 20 win season because he took a team that should have easily made the tournament to the NIT (16 wins in the regular season), where he got 4 wins.

But besides that, name a memorable win from VBK's 6 seasons coaching. UCLA coming off of their champion season comes to mind, but that was certainly not a great team, as it lost in the 1st round to Princeton, starting the season at #4 but piling up wins against a very weak PAC-10. Otherwise the highest ranked team we beat in 6 seasons was #15 UVA in December of the same season. VBK wasn't a bad coach, but it was quite clear that he had topped out at around 20 wins and 9-7 in the SEC and wasn't likely to go any further at VU (recruiting fell off a cliff in his last two seasons). Zero wins against UK, top ten teams and almost zero chance to beating a ranked team on the road (the UCLA and UVA wins were the only two against ranked opponents away from memorial in 29 chances). VBK didn't get the chances that CKS or CBD did, because he inherited as loaded a team as pretty much any VU coach has ever inherited - is there anyone who can honestly say that we should have held on to him for another few seasons?

And I know that while he might have wanted to get a chance to coach Langhi, Strong and Prater as seniors, it is very likely that they would not have had as good a season under VBK as they did under CKS. Langhi went from 42% to 48%, Strong from 41.5% to 45.6% and Prater from 37% to 49% while racking up 100 more assists as a senior.

CBD has a lot of distance to get to even where VBK was, but it is no mystery why we fired him nor can one objectively look at the record and say we made a mistake in doing so. This disaster of a season does not in any way make me long for the days of VBK. I don't really long for CEF or CKS either, as it was time to move on.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by EllistonVU » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:42 pm

I'll say VBK should have been given one more year. He should have been given a chance to coach a team led by the three seniors he recruited: Langhi, Strong, Prater plus veteran juniors Williams and LaPointe. Stallings won 19 games his first year with VBK's players. As soon as those three seniors were gone, CKS went 4-12 in the SEC the next season. A couple of seasons after that, with an all CKS roster, he went 3-13 in the SEC.

Now we have a guy who set the record for losses in a season with 20 and is about to be the first coach in the history of the Vanderbilt University and the SEC to go winless in a basketball season. And for some odd reason that is acceptable, while VBK's 20 win seasons were unacceptable. VBK didn't have the combined 16ppg of Anglin and Elder from the year before... just like Garland was averaging 16ppg and became not available. VBK also beat Virgina twice and they were ranked both times. He also had wins over ranked Florida and ranked Arkansas. But 0-18 is good I guess. Sure, we can live with 0-18. Just smile and clap a bunch.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Jason94 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:25 am

EllistonVU wrote:I'll say VBK should have been given one more year. He should have been given a chance to coach a team led by the three seniors he recruited: Langhi, Strong, Prater plus veteran juniors Williams and LaPointe. Stallings won 19 games his first year with VBK's players. As soon as those three seniors were gone, CKS went 4-12 in the SEC the next season. A couple of seasons after that, with an all CKS roster, he went 3-13 in the SEC.

Now we have a guy who set the record for losses in a season with 20 and is about to be the first coach in the history of the Vanderbilt University and the SEC to go winless in a basketball season. And for some odd reason that is acceptable, while VBK's 20 win seasons were unacceptable. VBK didn't have the combined 16ppg of Anglin and Elder from the year before... just like Garland was averaging 16ppg and became not available. VBK also beat Virgina twice and they were ranked both times. He also had wins over ranked Florida and ranked Arkansas. But 0-18 is good I guess. Sure, we can live with 0-18. Just smile and clap a bunch.
I'm not sure where you got that I am happy about CBD in any of that. Very odd. Anyway, I'm not sure why you are tying to make out like CVBK was unjustly fired, because he wasn't. I don't remember seeing any banners for the 20 win seasons he had, probably because nobody really cares about those seasons, since neither of them ended up in the tournament, nor were any tournament games won. You were very excited to see CKS go, and he left following back to back seasons of 21 wins (more than VBK ever had) and 19 wins - clearly 20 (or 19) win seasons aren't everything and it was right to let CKS go as it was to let CVBK go regardless of how bad these two CBD seasons have sucked. This sucky season makes nobody (except you apparently) want to see CVBK back. He didn't suck as back as this season, but it was unexciting basketball where we were basically stuck as afterthought only ahead of schools that didn't care at all about basketball.

And giving CVBK would have simply pushed back the hiring of a new coach back a year. CVBK likely would have won less than the 19 games that CKS won in his first season, given that CKS did something in that first season that CVBK was never able to do at VU - beat a ranked team on the road, and beat a top 10 team (2x's). It is almost certain that we would have lost to UT twice that season as well as the UF game at home and finished 16-13 (5-11). Then we would have been looking at the possibility of bringing back CVBK after having lost those three seniors in another non-tournament year (1 of 7 at that point) with a banged up LaPointe and very little talent below that.


BTW, do you actually remember the wins against UVa? I don't remember them at all. I remember the loss to Kansas that Drew hit the three to tie the game late and the loss to UK where they hit at shot (arguably) at the buzzer, but I cannot remember any specific win the way I remember us beating Louisville on the Lawson putback, the win against any #1 team or any tournament win. Which is the main point. There is basically nothing memorable positive about the CVBK era. It doesn't have anything to do with what one feels about CBD, because we couldn't compare VBK to BD at the time. If CBD is let go at the end of the season, I won't lose any sleep or lament his not getting another chance, but if he is back I still won't pine for the days of CVBK, who at this point was simply less crappy.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by EllistonVU » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:29 am

Yes, he did underachieve here as coach. (and immediately overachieved at Pepperdine) And nobody is calling for the now 70 years old (or so) JVBK to be hired as Drew's replacement. My choice for example might be 36 year old Wes Miller from UNC-Greensboro or 40-something year old Jeff Boals at Stony Brook. Guys from the Dean Smith and Thad Matta coaching tree.

However, you get the point that if VBK can be canned for basically three 20 win seasons, a coach that LOSES twenty and then even worse should be on the all-time hottest of hot seats. He took over a program that as you said won 21 and 19 the years before he arrived but only kept that status quo alive for one year and then tanked miserably for two. I was at his introductory presser at Memorial that day and heard all the talk out of him about going to the final four. Now it feels like Vanderbilt was sold a bill of goods. Swamp land. Brooklyn Bridge. However you would prefer to phrase it.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by charlestonalum » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:49 am

EllistonVU wrote:Yes, he did underachieve here as coach. (and immediately overachieved at Pepperdine) And nobody is calling for the now 70 years old (or so) JVBK to be hired as Drew's replacement. My choice for example might be 36 year old Wes Miller from UNC-Greensboro or 40-something year old Jeff Boals at Stony Brook. Guys from the Dean Smith and Thad Matta coaching tree.

However, you get the point that if VBK can be canned for basically three 20 win seasons, a coach that LOSES twenty and then even worse should be on the all-time hottest of hot seats. He took over a program that as you said won 21 and 19 the years before he arrived but only kept that status quo alive for one year and then tanked miserably for two. I was at his introductory presser at Memorial that day and heard all the talk out of him about going to the final four. Now it feels like Vanderbilt was sold a bill of goods. Swamp land. Brooklyn Bridge. However you would prefer to phrase it.
maybe we were misled and maybe Drew will be given the time VBK deserved and he will prove you wrong... time will tell.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Nashmann » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 pm

Vanderbilt REALLY has very little talent. I do blame CBD for that more than I do his actual coaching, His evaluation of talent on transfers has been poor at best. In addition, a couple of his early recruits were not SEC caliber. I think he has turned his recruiting around but will take time for some on the roster to filter out of the program. Hopefully, CBD has seen what type of talent and skill level is needed to compete at the SEC and National level. I really think he needs to look hard and deep, evaluate his staff and how are they not only recruiting but coaching players up.

What really gets me though is the free throw difficulties. I know they practice, but some that are shooting crappy are using the same awful form game after game. Saban is a prime example! Can you not give him some pointers? Everyone can see what he is doing....is he that hard headed not to adjust or what is the reason?? :? :?
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by dcdore » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:28 pm

Nashmann wrote:Hopefully, CBD has seen what type of talent and skill level is needed to compete at the SEC and National level.
Nashmann, I hope this is not the case. If Drew is just now learning the talent and skill level needed, it will be 2020 before any of that starts to arrive at VU. For lack of comparisons, if he chooses the Rick Barnes approach rather than the Calipari approach, it would be 2023 before we sniffed the NCAAT.

I am not sure much of anyone would give him that long.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Doresince89 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 pm

Nashmann wrote:Vanderbilt REALLY has very little talent. I do blame CBD for that more than I do his actual coaching, His evaluation of talent on transfers has been poor at best. In addition, a couple of his early recruits were not SEC caliber. I think he has turned his recruiting around but will take time for some on the roster to filter out of the program. Hopefully, CBD has seen what type of talent and skill level is needed to compete at the SEC and National level. I really think he needs to look hard and deep, evaluate his staff and how are they not only recruiting but coaching players up.

What really gets me though is the free throw difficulties. I know they practice, but some that are shooting crappy are using the same awful form game after game. Saban is a prime example! Can you not give him some pointers? Everyone can see what he is doing....is he that hard headed not to adjust or what is the reason?? :? :?
I agree the transfers aren't starter material in the SEC but could you imagine this team/bench without them? I think grad transfers (or transfers in general) is usual a gamble. There is a reason they are transferring and it is usually not for a good reason basketball wise. If CBD had not taken them, we would be running a 6 man rotation. I agree that his recruiting seems to be improving with the last 2 classes. I hope he can make a team that can compete next year. If he can't then I will not defend him any longer.

For the free throws. I would think that trying to change a players mechanics after the season has started is not a good idea. I could not imagine what everyone would be screaming as Lee's percentage actually got worse as he is trying a new technique. How long did it take Tiger Woods to be successful when he changed his swing, 2-3 years? I know it was not an immediate fix and he could work on it all day every day. CBD has talked about the free throw issues and I would hope he will work on the problem hard in the off season but this is not the time to change everyone's form.

I am starting to have little hope at an SEC win this season. There is always a possibility as long as there is a game but it is starting to look bleak. I still want him back next year to see what he can do with a healthy team of 4-5 star players (assuming Simi doesn't go NBA). He proved he could coach at Valpo and I think he can still get it done at Vandy.
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Re: THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE 0-10

Post by Nashmann » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Saban's form did not just develop midseason. It doesn't take much to say "Hey, you are shootin all your shot jumpers & especially free throws FLAT! Put some arc on it."

You are right...always taking a chance on a transfer but you should have enough film on him to see if he has all around BB skills. Also, the reason they are transferring. At least with a grad transfer, it is just one year and you don't tie up 3 or 4 years of a scholarship on some untested player unless you REALLY know they can play. Yes, we would have been short on players but there were a lot of grad transfers around. Jury still out on Moyer, Yanni finally starting to catch on. Ryan playing like he was described before he signed. Good shooter, not a good rebounder, slow and not a great defender. Only now he is not even shooting well.
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